[specproc]

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN translate poorly to Slack.

Arguing with your boss in private, now that's a completely different deck of Magic cards. Totally helpful, productive behaviour if done respectfully and constructively. You're there to solve problems together, having differences of opinion is natural. Thrash it out between you in a 1:1, book time to engage and brainstorm.

Be nice, be prepared, find solutions that move things forward without bruising egos, try and get them to think it was their idea.

Importantly, you're coming to a decision in which they get the final say, because it's their team. Once a decision is made, after consultation, you just gotta roll with it. Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.

If you keep on "losing" or finding yourself in constant conflict with your boss, that suggests a deeper problem. Jobs are like relationships, they've gotta work both ways. Maybe this isn't the right one for you (or them, but just as likely you).

Anyway. Never argue with your boss _in public_. Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.

[Frieren]

> The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_.

This is the main reason that most abuse happens in companies. Discussions are kept private so nobody can add 1+1 and see how toxic are certain bosses.

This also enables misalignments and lies. I have seen bosses that are will say one thing to one employee and a different one to the next and even a different one upwards to leadership.

Lack of transparency is a red flag for any company. Some personal matters can be discussed privately, but when all discussions are private abuse and chaos are guranteed.

[sillyfluke]

I agree, though it should be said arguing in public is for people willing to accept the consequences of their actions (retaliation, getting fired etc). That's why ideally you should arrange your life (mentally or materially) in such a way that allows you to act without the fear of being fired, if possible obviously.

[Frieren]

Yes. When management is bad then having a public discussion will end up in retaliation.

My advice is not to always discuss in public, but that companies should encourage that behaviour and punish toxic management.

You made a very good point.

[oumua_don17]

>> Arguing with your boss in private

Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!

[specproc]

Yeah, hundred percent, find a new boss.

[quotemstr]

> Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.

This norm is terrible. It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional. Debate spreads common knowledge and ensures ideas get tested before execution. Hiding discussions is selfish, antisocial behavior that prioritizes your social image over idea quality and everyone's benefit. If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.

It's weak leadership indeed that feels like debate undermines authority. A recipe for hell is

1. eradicating formal levels and hierarchy so everyone is "equal" and "ideas win", then

2. establishing a norm that debate never occur in public so that "ideas win" doesn't actually threaten whatever tyranny-of-structurelessness primate power dynamics emerge.

Thoroughly poisonous culture. A strong leader welcomes debate because his authority is secure.

[disgruntledphd2]

> If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.

I dunno about you, but I've left a bunch of jobs (or been left) because I thought the people involved could handle debate, when they couldn't.

Your boss is a human, they have issues that may prevent them from accepting your (clearly better ;) ) solution, or they may have context that they can't share (their boss might be pushing for something dumb).

Ultimately, the hierarchy and the power differentials are real, and unless you're happy jumping ship all the time (which I am not, anymore) you need to find a way to deal with disagreements more productively (which often involves letting people save face by disagreeing in private).

> It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional.

I think the deeper reason for Cali tech dysfunction is the relentless norm of frankly insane positivity, not the ability for people to debate.

[quotemstr]

> relentless norm of frankly insane positivity, not the ability for people to debate.

They are aspects of the same thing.

Debate implies that things aren't already perfect. "Why would positive people argue", a Californoid might ask, "instead of working together to make something great?".

My chief problem with California tech is that it's structured to reward schmoozing at the expense of ideas themselves and marketed as the opposite. It's unreality.

[LtWorf]

> Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.

No I don't think it's how it works at all. If you want to show value you should absolutely point out you were right.

[specproc]

There's always time for lessons learned, but gloating isn't mature or helpful.

Honestly, I've never stuck around with a bad boss long enough to get into this sort of situation with them. Life is too short.

Most managers I've had a long-term relationship with have been, at worst, overwhelmed or utterly beholden to bad priorities set further up the chain. They all have been decent enough folks, trying to do their best for the organisation.

You gotta spend all your time with these people. Rubbing your correctness in their face ain't going to make either of your work lives better.

Try doing the same with your partner, see how that goes.