[idiotsecant]

If we're contributing anecdata I have used LLMs to tremendous effect to learn all kinds of interesting stuff because I like learning interesting stuff and LLMs can tailor the level of instruction to exactly where you're at and don't mind questions interrupting ever 6 seconds which is better than both textbooks and teachers, mostly.

[bluefirebrand]

Have you ever tried to do the thing you learned without the LLM holding your hand?

Or are you just assuming you learned something because you made a finished product of some kind?

[pixl97]

Actually yes, I've used an LLM to make a better old fashioned (whisky based drink). Turns out skimping on the orange oil/zest makes a huge difference. And, no now that I've learned it I don't expect I'll have to go back for this express need.

This is where LLMs and even things like youtube videos muddle the difference between what you are and things you have to do as a human. The number of things you can be presented with in the modern world that you'd like, or have to do, is simply endless. If it's something small, with little opportunity cost if failure occurs, then just going to an LLM for an answer doesn't bother me. Now if it's something that's more costly like DIY remodeling an LLM isn't a primary driver, but in as a device that can push back when I ask about mistakes that can be made and what to watch out for.

[idiotsecant]

Of course I have. What a weird question. If someone learned algebra would you ask them if they can do algebra without their teacher there?

[bluefirebrand]

If someone was studying under a teacher that had a reputation of stepping in and doing the work for them, yes I absolutely would

And AI has that reputation!

[ex-aws-dude]

The question is does that even matter

You may argue what if LLMs are inaccessible but that’s like teachers saying “you won’t always have a calculator”

[ClikeX]

> that’s like teachers saying “you won’t always have a calculator

They were right, though. For one, you still need to now what kind of equation to put into the calculator. If you don't know the concepts, what are you going to calculate. Real life situations don't actually spell out neat textbook questions.

And just take a look throughout the day how many quick maths you do subconsciously. Just things like cooking or grocery shopping have tons of moments where you just do the calculation in your head. And you can do that because you've learned how and when to do that.

It's not just a matter of "What if it's inaccessible", but also "Do you want to be dependent on your phone even more". Are just going to walk around with your phone on voice mode narrating your life into your LLM to let it tell you what to do?

[ssl-3]

> They were right, though.

They were not. I'm not dead yet so I suppose there's still a chance, but so far in decades of living life I've always had calculators when I've needed them.

> For one, you still need to now what kind of equation to put into the calculator.

That's a very different construct. Math concepts don't care how the arithmetic is performed.

> If you don't know the concepts, what are you going to calculate.

If you don't know the concepts, then what kind of arithmetic are you going to perform with anything -- whether the mind's eye, pencil and paper, a sliderule, or a pocket supercomputer?

[rmunn]

I have a calculator (and many other tools, of course) in my pocket at all times, now... and yet I don't pull it out very often. Because I can add $1.99 + $3.49 faster in my head ($2 plus $3.50 minus two cents = $5.48) than I could get the result by pulling out the phone, swiping my access pattern, tapping the calculator app, and punching in the results. Heck, even if I had a dedicated calculator that only required pulling it out and pressing an On button, I'd still come up with the result faster than I could punch the buttons.

It's definitely worth it for kids to invest the time it takes to learn the little shortcuts involved in mental math: that effort gets repaid many times over during the course of a normal human lifetime.

[ssl-3]

I do simple math like that in my head all the time, despite having had special permission to use a calculator in school.

It was the same back then: Some quick mental math was often faster than using a calculator, so that's what I used first. The calculator came second.

I reject all notions that these are mutually-exclusive concepts.

[ClikeX]

I feel like you missed the point I was trying to make.

Sure, a teacher framing the necessity of learning math as "you don't always have calculator" is pretty lazy answer that doesn't really get to the point. In my experience, teachers rarely even made this point, students did that tried to argue that Mathematics was pointless when you have calculators.

But my point was that actually knowing these concepts is good for complex reasoning you can do in all aspects of life. Whether you have the calculator with you or not.

[bluefirebrand]

An LLM always being accessible is not my problem

My problem is that filtering all of human creativity and expression through an LLM is ugly

[walt_grata]

Sure it does. I still nees to know the correct mathematics to type into the calculator and the calculator is deterministic. If you don't understand it without the llm explaining it, how can you be sure you actually understand it? How can you catch mistakes made due to it being non-deterministic? Ask another llm? Same problem