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by ikari_pl 19 days ago
I'm surprised that getting our low space to this state was even legal
6 comments

I'm sometimes baffled how people's knee jerk reaction is to think how to ban this. And yet those same people complain about their parents that claimed that Rock'n'Roll or DnD should be banned because it's satanic.

This is literally the coolest thing we as a species achieved that doesn't serve self-preservation purposes.

Problem is this capability is concentrated in the hands of

1. A private company.

2. Of a single country with inconsistent leaders.

I’d be less anxious if Europe had this capability instead.

You will be fine. China will have this capability soon.
I don't like that either, but nothing's stopping others from following the same path and achieving the same capabilities, other than their own inability or refusal to do what's already been done. It's been over a decade since Falcon 9's first successful landing and we're only recently starting to see similar feats from others.
Except the space in these orbits is finite and a collision at say 520 km requires quick action or the entire fleet in that orbit will eventually be destroyed.

https://conference.sdo.esoc.esa.int/proceedings/sdc9/paper/3...

The reason why Europe doesn't have this is the regulation.
Europe isn't the sort of place that would develop this capability
France has Eutelsat: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutelsat>.

Germany had SES/Astra: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SES_Astra>.

The EU as a whole as the Galileo satnav / GPS project: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation_...>.

There are numerous other EU satellite comms providers, though most are aimed at commercial/broadcast services. That's a departure point for satellite-phone or satellite-internet, however.

Europe can and has developed similar and/or precursor capabilities.

The EU can technically do it but they won’t. Starlink dwarfs all the services you mentioned. The EU doesn’t even believe in air conditioning much less making a robust satellite network
Also I'm betting he himself has never bought these services. I signed up here on Intelsat.
> This is literally the coolest thing we as a species achieved that doesn't serve self-preservation purposes.

couldn't be more wrong

We shot thousands of tiny cubes into a heights people thought heaven would reside. Then we communicate with them at the speeds of "The whole data storage of 2000's computer" per second. They survive radiation, accelerations and flying through electromagnetic field at thousands of km/h. We can predict their movement, steer them and provide consumer priced service for tens of thousands of people. It's astronomy, mechanical, material, electrical and computer engineering at it's peak.

This is a civilization level defining achievement.

PoV dependant.

It's a civilisation that has failed to clean up its own waste and byproducts threatening its own existence.

For some, that's an outright failure, for others, less than stellar.

It was never "legal" but it wasn't specifically illegal either.

Space-based businesses are hoping to grandfather themselves in once laws are established about the use of space, and betting that by then whatever service they offer will be seen as indispensable.

There’s a lot of space in space. This is not to scale.
There's a lot of space in air, and yet we have multiple midair collisions every year.
In the last ten years we have one (1) accidental satellite collision. In 2021 when a Chinese spy satellite in a 788km orbit collided with an old rocket stage from the 90s. There was also that Indian anti-satellite weapon hitting a microsat in 2019, but that was very much intentional (and much condemned because of all the fragments it caused)

In the decade before that (so 2006-2015) we had four accidental collisions and two anti-satellite tests (China and US)

Those are not frequent events. And if you attribute any statistical significance to them, it seems we are getting much better at avoiding collisions

We have very few midair collisions every year and they almost all happen near the airports.
Surface of a sphere (spheroid) is the square of the diameter. Planes fly at ~10kms, satellites at orders of magnitude higher.
However, the Earth’s own radius dwarfs the height of LEO, so they’re actually roughly the same.

There are other reasons we don’t currently experience major problems with collisions in space, and why airplanes sometimes do, but it is not this.

Respectfully disagree as you're comparing the surface to the size of the object, so it definitely matters.

Here's some math:

Average Earth diameter: 12742kms + 10km Average airplane surface area = 500m2 12752^2*pi = 510,865,389km2 Surface flight/plane = 1021730 planes

Starlink orbit height = ~500km Surface at orbit = ~551,712,377 so ~8% increase (which is non-negligible) Average Starlink satellite surface area = ~7m2 Surface LEO/satelite = 78816053 satellites (77x compared to airplanes)

Daily flights 50k-100k. Total number of satellites <20k.

And this is only for Starlink LEO. If you go for higher orbits the surface grows substantially. Also satellites have predictable paths, altitudes, airplanes maneuver and turn, gain altitude/lose altitude. They gather around points (airfields) etc...

I would argue that 8% is absolutely negligible; however one thing that isn't is that airspace is a narrow band vertically (12 km? Not sure exactly), while LEO is about 800 km thick (from about 200 km, because the Kármán line isn't good enough, to about 1000 km).

Conversely:

> Daily flights 50k-100k. Total number of satellites <20k.

Those 20k satellites orbit roughly every 95 minutes, so they're doing ~15 orbits per day, and even the longest flights from conventional aircraft are about half that distance, so by distance each satellite in LEO is doing strictly more than the equivalent of 30 flights per day each.

Research I'm doing for a blog post has shown me that the exact position of a satellite is surprisingly variable compared to what you'd reasonably expect from a "Newtonian spherical Earth with a perfect vacuum" approximation of the orbits, enough so that it makes sense to treat 1 km as the "collision avoidance manoeuvres needed" threshold.

I believe the second half of your comment is exactly what I was getting at.
Aircraft have both anticollision detection systems and maneuverability often lacking in satellites.
Why would it be illegal? There are virtually zero drawbacks and huge advantages to these satellites. They are not rendered to scale either, in reality they are minuscule compared to the amount of available space. There’s room for millions more spacecraft.
I think it's fair to classify the advantages as "modest" not "huge." Yes, it's cool that sailboats in the middle of the Pacific can get Internet, but the vast majority of Internet users are still connected via fiber or copper. And, arguably, the existence of Starlink could enable governments to cease the rollout of terrestrial Internet, which is a modest drawback to the technology.

I've also seen reports that, as the satellites become overburdened, speeds are pretty variable. Again, not saying it's a net negative, but I just don't think there are "huge advantages" to Starlink.

As someone who worked and briefly lived in subsaharan Africa, I will say that the advantages are huge. Bandwidth alone isn't even the whole story - latency really matters too, another area where Starlink is super helpful compared to say, trying to get fiber punched in west from the southeastern parts of Africa. I have not yet mentioned the benefits of state actors not being able to cut your fiber at sea where nobody can see them.
Fantastic now you can browse TikTok in the middle of the desert.
From the community guidelines: Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously

I'd add to your list...Or do Khan Academy, learn how to purify water, find out recent grain prices a 10 hour drive away, decide if your baby's rash needs an expensive trip in to town, and so on.

What a delusional view of reality. Do you think those who live in areas with zero fixed internet infra has the time nor the resources to sit through a few hours of Khan Academy per day, or the means to build a filter capable of purifying water?
This is a pretty uncharitable take. Every largish construction company in the country uses StarLink for their many projects where Internet isn't available. Yknow, actually building the country out. It's a game changer.
Huge advantages maybe in the future. Not now.

I’m thinking buying a camper van, and just travel through the world. Except I need internet, everywhere.

There are no such options. Starlink is the best, but there are two main problems with it:

- In the countries where it would be the most useful, it’s not allowed to be used (Garmin has the same problem with their Fenix 8 Pro, their availability maps are a joke) - You need to go back to your “home” country every other month (there is a non legal, thus risky, option to circumvent this for now)

So, that huge advantage is not here yet at all.

There are huge military advantages right now. The US military will not willingly give up starlink, and they can use it in every country without permission.
What does it give to the military, what they haven’t had already? Better round trip time?
I’m more familiar with how Starlink compares to existing publicly-available satellite internet options. Here are some brief points:

- data throughput orders of magnitude higher,

- the ability to use smaller and more portable antennas (e.g. ~100 Mbps with something the size of a textbook, currently ~2 Mbps and soon ~10s Mbps with your normal mobile phone),

- order of magnitude lower latency compared to GSO satellites.

Other constellations like Iridium dedicate large portions to use by government(s?), too, but simply do not have the throughput or total bandwidth that Starlink does. Your speeds there, on the expensive business plans that offer it, are measured in the low Kbps.

Weight, Cost, bandwidth, polar availablity.

In Guam it means 10Gbps without Fiber.

US runs the show. Anything is possible.
If that was true China wouldn’t be able to launch as much as they have done
US will allow you to play in their playground up to a certain point. China’s experiments wont result in a threat.
Meanwhile: Is this true?

'Secret military documents from clandestine forums between Russia and China have revealed a possible joint strategic plan to disable Elon Musk’s Starlink satellite network alongside a deep weapons development partnership spanning hypersonic missile defense and autonomous drones, The Insider reported on July 9.'

https://meduza.io/en/news/2026/07/09/russia-and-china-discus...

That is not how orbital mechanics work.