[vitorfblima]

I'm quite confused by this. Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? It's funny that we can't differentiate the person from his "job". I work with some shitty managers, but I don't hold it against them on a personal level...

[em-bee]

Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack?

yes!

[ale]

Stinky manager != stinky person

[ebilgenius]

Calling someone stinky is a personal & childish attack. It doesn't matter how you attach it to some other label.

What Kelley would have said if he were acting like an adult & offering professional criticism was that Jarred was a bad manager. Ineffective, even. That is what an adult would have said there.

[em-bee]

an attack is not personal because it encompasses the whole person, but because it targets an aspect of that person. for an attack to be not personal it would have to target a category of people.

"software developers are stinky managers" is not a personal attack. neither is "managers are stinky", but "you/he/she/etc are something" is personal. it may not be an attack though if it is still part of a generalization: "you are a stinky manager because all software developers are stinky managers". but the article is not making that generalization, and therefore it's not just personal but also an attack.

[mb2100]

Some people even like stinky!

[em-bee]

only if it's cheese or tofu.

[ebilgenius]

Come on now.

[tomjakubowski]

It may be hard to separate the work and non-work personas of Jarred in particular. I watched an interview with Jarred where the interviewer asked what he liked to do for fun, what were his hobbies outside of work, and so on. His answer was that he liked working on Bun, and that's all he did. I felt a bit sad for him about it: even Linus T. has hobbies (like diving) and has raised a family.

That said, it isn't necessarily the case that workaholics are bad managers, or that they insist on workaholism in their subordinates. We, generally, don't have access to Andrew's rumornet, we can only go off what Jarred's said publicly.

[jdelman]

Inappropriate comparison. Did Linus raise a family by age 30?

[Ar-Curunir]

How do these statements read to you:

You’re a shitty programmer!

Vs “your code is bad”.

Who is the subject of these sentences?

[jononor]

Or "this code (which you happened to write) is bad" vs "you are a shitty programmer".

[orangedog]

You do your job for hours every week, it is undoubtedly part of you. Calling somebody that is very personal and rude. I'm shocked that there are this many people who don't find issue with it. It removes any kindness from the post and turns it all up to 11. I's deeply personal.

Do some of you really talk to others like this and find no issue with it? It's hard to say words like that and not end up with deep schisms and hatred.

[cognitiveinline]

Lol. Imagine you were called a stinky employee, and you thinking that's not a personal attack. Would be very noble of you.

[cheikhcheikh]

Man these are some impressive mental gymnastics... yes its an insult, made very public. It, and the rest of the insults, are very disrespectful and reflects very poorly on andrew and paints him as petty and childish

[xlii]

Word-engineer hat on:

> The grapevine was (...), and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager.

Per exact words these two are different:

    - I think someone is stinky
    - I spoke with people who said someone is stinky 

i.e. I might myself not share the sentinment, or not know anything about it, or simply not engage - relay is not an opinion in itself.

[krupan]

You got it wrong.

- I think someone is stinky at this one particular thing

- I spoke with people who said he was stinky at this one particular thing

Those are different than personal attacks

[Havoc]

Don’t think there is a clear line to draw as to where the person stops and the professional performance starts when it comes to management because on soft skill it is inherently driven by personal attributes. It’s a bit like a good salesman exudes likeability - it’s integral to the performance of the job and part of the person.

He may well be a shit manager. I have no idea. Either way it’s not something you casually throw out there in a blog like this

[fourseventy]

Are you serious? If I told you to your face "you are shitty at your job" you don't see that as a personal attack?

[miyoji]

It depends on what job you're talking about. I've definitely been shitty at several that I've had in my life, if you're talking about those I would simply agree with you.

[PKop]

> If I told you to your face

That's not even the extent of it. Saying something in private face to face at least keeps it between 2 people. He posted it publicly for the world to see, so it's a massively bigger "attack".

[conartist6]

Sure, but getting a bad perf review then, is that necessarily a personal attack?

Andrew and Jarred and I are all peers in this situation. You get reviews from your peers.

[threatofrain]

I don't understand, why isn't your attention focused on the claim that Jarred lies in professional settings and in public? Jarred himself shows up to post receipts with barely any commentary, showing where the focus is.

Anyways, what do you think about Jarred? Do you think he lies about Andrew in public? What was the term Andrew used? Outright fabrication?

[conartist6]

I value competence above all else, and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence.

I wouldn't claim he's lying because I have no first-hand knowledge to base such a claim on. I just think his whole persona is about selling the idea that "you don't need to look at the code anymore". I would have a hard time calling that a lie because I think he really believes it. It does mean that I think of him as a fool or a pawn, though: a friendly face whose purpose is to give a feeling of safety and human harmlessness to a destructive agenda of machine supremacy.

My moral condemnation for that is as strong as if I thought he was simply lying, and perhaps stronger.

[mathisfun123]

> I value competence above all else

This is very beginner energy lol. Are you possibly a teenager?

> and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence.

Your username name is conartist6....

[conartist6]

lolol you're just gonna die inside when you find out that such a piece of shit as I am owns... well, as I say, you'll find out ;)

[johnfn]

No one says "You are a bad employee" in a perf review because it would be a personal attack. They say things like "when you did X it had Y outcome" because that's a fact, not a personal attack.

[vitorfblima]

People who love me have told me many times that I'm "shitty" at something. Guess it dependes where you're coming from.

[Ar-Curunir]

Clearly Kelley was not saying this from a place of love or caring.