[TheOtherHobbes]

B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy.

It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.

[dgs_sgd]

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

[14u2c]

Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English.

It actually can be a problem because most people switch to English as soon as they realize your are not a native speaker, which can make learning harder.

[marcus_holmes]

This was my experience. I lived for almost four years in Berlin, and was trying to learn German (I got to A2, which isn't much). But actually getting experience/immersion in German is difficult in Berlin - everyone under the age of 50 speaks good English and switched to that as soon as my first badly-conjugated sentence left my mouth.

I worked for two German companies while I was there, and the entire tech team in both companies did everything in English. This is normal there. In one of them, the (German) CEO gave a townhall speech to the entire company (~1000 employees) in English.

So yes, it's very understandable for the German government to say "you must be at least B1 to live here" but that doesn't recognise the fact that it is perfectly possible to actually live and work in Berlin with no German at all.

It's different in other German cities, apparently. If we'd moved to Munich or Cologne I would have had more pressure to learn German, and also more exposure to it and more immersion which would have helped learn it.

[thayne]

Even when I vacationed in Bayern (Bavaria), a lot of people switched to English when they realized that my German wasn't that good. Which was frustrating, because I wanted to practice speaking with native speakers.

Although, there were also people who only spoke German.

[doikor]

If you want to learn you just pretend that you don’t speak English and keep on speaking German. They will switch back fast.

[flakeoil]

This is the right way. Speak the language you want. Even if they reply to you in English, and they know you can speak English, continue in German. They will understand. They switch to English because they want to be helpful. If you continue in German they understand you prefer it that way.

Another thing is that once you start talking with a person (who you meet on a regular basis) in one language, it is hard to switch to another language at a later date. So if you start with English, it is hard to go back to German. But if you start with German, even if it is less fluent for you, it will come natural that with that person you speak in German.

[throwaway2037]

Did you ask if you can move to a different city and work remotely? Even if only 1-2 years, it might really help to boost your German. Moving to Dresden, Hanover, or Hamburg would help. (German HNers can probably recommend a bunch of small cities 1-2 hours away by train/car from Berlin that will use much more German language!) You could come to the office once a week.

Another tip: Always start the conversation in German. If the person switches to English, ask them politely to speak German, and explain that you are studying German. My parents did similar when they moved to the Netherlands 50 years ago. The local shopkeepers were eager to practice English with my parents, but my parents were also eager to practice their Dutch.

[marcus_holmes]

That's really good advice, but I found it hard to put into practice because my German was so bad. And German isn't a language you can just hammer out a badly-formed sentence in; word position is less important than conjugation, so if you get the conjugation wrong it makes no sense at all to the listener. I did try this a few times, but everyone lost patience with the painful butchering of their language when they realised their English was a lot better than my German.

I would have moved city, but a: COVID b: my wife also had a job there c: I really loved Berlin and really enjoyed living there

[throwaway2037]

I like the effort! It is more that half of the battle when learning a new language as an adult. What really helped me: Create your own custom Anki deck. Literally, start from zero. Each time you try-and-fail (or think of something that you don't know how to say), write a note to yourself in English/broken German with the sentence/idea that failed. At home, use a translate tool (LLM/Google/whatever) to build the correct German sentence. Next, add it to your Anki deck. Personally, I only add full sentences, never just vocab, because it adds more natural context. Only add real stuff that you will use. On the first day, you have an Anki deck with one card. If you are really motivated, try to add one card per day, but just 1-2 cards per week will quickly improve the deck. Since the deck is so damn small, you can blow through it in five minutes while riding the S-Bahn/U-Bahn trains. And, every single sentence is useful to you. Bonus: Ask a native German speaker about some of your Anki deck sentences. They will probably love to talk to you about the German language because you will be showing your commitment.

[bryanrasmussen]

>everyone under the age of 50 speaks good English and switched to that as soon as my first badly-conjugated sentence left my mouth.

OK maybe things have changed in recent years. I was always annoyed when coming to visit family living in Berlin for a couple days or driving in to a conference, and inevitably there would come a time when I would have to ask someone for help and I would have to ask in English because I do not speak German (although due to youthful immersion I start to remember it again after a couple of weeks) and they would inevitably answer in German.

I could somewhat understand when we stopped in a park asking where the convention center was of just a couple people by the side of the road, but asking a ticket agent at a train station what route I should take to get to a particular station and getting replies in German seemed especially rude.

At any rate despite some good experiences with Germans regarding helpfulness I have had a few too many negative experiences.

[marcus_holmes]

Berliners are renowned even in Germany for being blunt to the point of rudeness.

What we in the Anglosphere would consider rude, they consider efficient. It can be very off-putting at first, but you do get used to it.

[bryanrasmussen]

in most other countries renowned for being efficient it would not be considered efficient to answer in a language the questioner evidently does not speak.

[aveao]

This isn't really true. I've lived in both Munich and Hamburg now, and you 100% need some amount of german to navigate life, many people do not in fact have conversational-level english. I often say that the common paths tend to be easy to navigate in english (e.g. booking a train ticket, getting a phone line), but the adjacent flows (e.g. filing a refund request for your unfulfilled seat reservation, cancelling your phone contract) often require talking to someone in german. A doctor may be marked as speaking english, but that doesn't mean that their reception speaks english.

Berlin may be a different story within Germany, and then there's the entirety of e.g. Netherlands, but I know that the situation in France isn't better than here.

---

That said, B1 is a difficult level within german. Being able to converse fluently enough in not-quite-correct german -which is enough for getting through day to day life- is not necessarily enough to pass the test, and you really need to crunch through memorizing the grammatical gender of thousands of words, alongside getting really good at applying them in various grammatical forms (e.g. declensions vary for the same word based on how it's used).

[stnikolauswagne]

There is some sort of weird phenomenon that I cant quite put to words, but the core is:

While there is a big chunk of the native german population speaking great english there is a subset of (often) service workers who... dont. Had multiple furniture movers come through my house the last few weeks, the only way to communicate with them was broken german, since they had no english skills and my (croatian? serbian?) skills were zero.

At one point I ended up in the weirdest situation of my live were i translated the german instructions from the phone rep into english to the shift lead of the moving company so he could then give them in the native language to the movers.

[bulbar]

That's basically why you should learn the language of the country you live in.

Blaming people for not speaking English in Germany is pretty weird. How about learning German instead?

[fransje26]

> Blaming people for not speaking English in Germany is pretty weird. How about learning German instead?

As the poster wrote:

>> At one point I ended up in the weirdest situation of my live were i translated the german instructions from the phone rep into english [..]

which implies that he does, in fact, speak German. The movers did not, though.

[stnikolauswagne]

I speak german as a mothertongue and fluent english, and I had massive troubles communicating in my own home.

[bulbar]

I see, that wasn't clear to me from what you wrote.

[aleph_minus_one]

> Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English.

For sure not in France and Spain (outside of tourist areas).

[vidarh]

I agree not everyone, but it has changed dramatically in at least France as well in the last 30 years. First time I went to France, most people would not switch to English even in the middle of Paris, often even if they knew English unless they saw no other way out.

More recently, with much better French, I've had people impatiently switching to English the moment I was struggled to find the right word.

There certainly is a shift, though, when you get outside the tourist areas.

E.g. in Nice, you can pinpoint it almost by street. Cross under the railway in the city centre and move into Liberation, for example, and you will immediately find some staff that are unable or unwilling to speak English, and many who at least won't switch unless you ask. But it's also not surprising given how abrupt the number of tourists fall off...

[throwaway2037]

You beat me to it! This is the classic HN reply. Even in Paris or Milan, as soon as you leave the central areas, most people will speak little English and are happy to allow you to practice your poor French/Italian with them!

[bloppe]

I'm constantly amazed at how far I can get in Portugal or Italy speaking only Spanish. They're different languages but you can make it work well enough in pretty much every situation I've been in.

[throwaway2037]

I recall reading an autobiography by US Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor. She used to represent Fendi, the Italian fashion brand, when there were suing for copyright infringement (counterfeit goods). She would speak Spanish and the Fendi senior execs would speak Italian and they understood each other well enough. That was a real a-ha moment for me!

[vidarh]

To butcher a old quote about English: Spanish is just badly pronounced Italian, after all ;)

[21asdffdsa12]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYpTfx1ey8

[testing22321]

> Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English

You are completely forgetting the people trying to move there who don’t speak English OR the native language

[aveao]

For my german work visa in 2022, I had to either give proof of sufficient german knowledge, or a letter from my employer confirming the job would be in english.

"People who don't speak english or native language" does not represent the people moving for work to germany. Most family reunion routes at least require A1 german as well (which is super easy to pass, but is scary enough for some anyways).

[eptcyka]

Only if you live in metropolitan cities.

[itake]

The US has a huge population of Spanish only speakers and they find success.

I live in Vietnam for over three years, and while I continue to practice the language, I literally cannot pronounce the tones for about a third of the letters, but I still have a very happy and comfortable life here

[account42]

They find success by forming their own enclaves instead of integrating. Great for them perhaps but not something that the host country has to accept.

[throwaway2037]

People who work low skills jobs do this all the time. In rich countries, many construction sites and factories have people working for little more than minimum wage in low skill jobs that barely speak the local language. They make it. If they have a family, they live in a native language bubble at home, but their kids are immersed in the local language at school.

[michaelt]

A lot of societies are set up to accommodate that society's dumbest members, and tourists, for most everyday tasks.

Outside of the workplace and my hobbies, I can't remember the last time someone asked me to read more than a few words, write anything at all, or do any maths more complicated than "the 12:20 train is 10 minutes late"

Personally I would say it's not respectful to a society to move there and not make a decent effort to learn the language - but I have no doubt a person could survive with only basic skills, if their workplace worked in their native language and they had an ethnic enclave as a support network.

[ben_w]

I have B1 German, finally managing an official certification at the start of this year despite living here since the end of summer of 2018.

As societies require accommodations for idiots, I found it so easy to get by with the German I did know that I kept incorrectly assuming I was at B1 level for years and years.

B1 requires being able to read headlines and a few paragraphs of a typical newspapers, to briefly plan events, that kind of thing; not just the ingredients and cooking instructions on the back of food packaging and know how much money to hand over to the cashier.

Given what I still can't do, I can totally understand why so many job openings I see at the moment require B2 or C1:

My grammar is still terrible, and my grasp of accents is still heavily biased towards a handful of podcasts and youtube channels, and being surprised by the conversation topic can still easily confuse me, as I found out on Sunday when someone's classic motorbike broke down outside my house and they asked to borrow a 19mm spanner.

[mr_toad]

> for most everyday tasks

That’s true, if you’re in Paris you can get by with very little French.

But don’t be too surprised if Gendarmerie aren’t particularly lenient just because tu ne comprends pas le français.

[Xmd5a]

There is no gendarmerie in Paris.

[mr_toad]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VBRG_in_Paris_Domenj...

[aranelsurion]

> I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

That heavily depends on the city and country. I don't know where OP is, but for example in Berlin it's kinda rare to meet people not speaking any English, basically mostly old people/retirees don't.

There are gyms where people speak English, cinemas with English subtitles, all kinds of doctors speak English, even a lot of bureaucracy like driving exams etc. can be taken in English. Speak to a random person in English, odds are very high they respond back in English.

I'm not saying this to mean it's 100% easy of course. Default language is ofc German, and not knowing it locks you out sometimes. Just saying that it's possible to live in a city like Berlin and not speak the language, and most days you barely think about it. I'd say it's an obstacle once-twice a month rather than daily.

[aleph_minus_one]

Berlin is a completely different world than the rest of Germany. Never make the mistake of generalizing anything that you observed in Berlin to Germany outside of Berlin.

[throwaway2037]

Great point! I would say the same about the "alpha" economic city in any rich country. Think about Paris, Milan, London, Amsterdam, Brussels, Madrid, Lisbon, etc.: The same rule would apply.

[keiferski]

Berlin isn’t the alpha economic city in Germany though. There isn’t really one, but it’s more like Frankfurt.

Berlin has a lot of English speakers because it’s been a cool place for young people to move to from across Europe for the last few decades.

[throwaway2037]

    > Berlin isn’t the alpha economic city in Germany though. There isn’t really one, but it’s more like Frankfurt.

You are right. I will add one thing: Berlin is the alpha economic city in Germany for the new economy. Frankfurt is for finance, and Munich is for manufacturing, but those are the old economy -- barely changing.

[modriano]

Being bombed to hell and then split in half and starved of resources until 1989 really hindered Berlin's economic development. It's not the powerhouse one might expect given its cultural output and being a nation's Capitol.

[retired]

I have no issues with A1 Spanish in Spain for daily life.

[blks]

That is not true for many countries, especially in EU, and especially when you move as a skilled worker.

[parineum]

A country like the USA?

[thesmtsolver2]

For the US, you don’t have to know English for permanent residency. You can even have your interview in your own language with an interpreter

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/exceptions-and-accommodati...

[cpursley]

For all its problems, the US is one of the best at accommodating non English.

[ryandrake]

Not really. There are many immigrant-majority communities in the USA where you can live most of your day-to-day without needing to speak much English.

[justacrow]

Any $200k+ SW engineering jobs?

[nkrisc]

I’ve known some devs who were recent immigrants and did not speak much English. It wasn’t FAANG and not West coast so I don’t think they were making $200k but they got by and often paired with other devs who spoke their language and much better English.

Overall they were nice people and their English improved over time for the duration I knew them. It was a bit of a struggle to communicate sometimes but I didn’t mind it. Any time I felt frustrated about it I just thought about how they must be feeling, and it didn’t seem so bad anymore.

English is a pretty forgiving language.

[marseysneed]

In the bay area you can get away with very little english proficiency

[ang_cire]

Honestly, this question is really revealing, because it's the lower-paid SWE jobs that are probably not Bay Area or NYC, which are precisely the places where lower* English fluency is most likely to be tolerated or even the majority.

I was the only person on my 5-person team with 'Business English' at my first BA startup, so I got the job of writing all external-routing communications.

When I worked remote for a Midwest company years later, it was very clear that anything but perfect English was disqualifying in the eyes of a lot of (Midwest white male) management there.

[ryandrake]

OP was just talking about "doing basic life things."

[DiskoHexyl]

It is completely fair to expect at least B1 from potential citizens and permanent residents.

What the article is covering are the skilled workers, and for them B1 isn't nearly enough to function in any profesional capacity. I'd put B2 as a bare minimum for that. So if it's impossible for someone to find employment in the language they already know (for skilled workers it's usually English), they are understandably not eager to stay.

For those who are quick to judge, try mastering a foreign language (and German is noticeably more difficult than English, French or Spanish) in another country where you don't have any support system yet, and with likely some suboptimal job (as you need this foreign language to find a decent one). Getting to B2 takes about 750 class hours (not including homework) for an average English speaker. That's an enormous investment (of both time and money). One will have to sacrifice entertainment, socializing, hobbies, sleep, and work-related educational opportunities for several years in a row, depending on abilities (and the language).

And just a reminder- most people tend to overestimate how well they know a foreign language. Telling you know [insert your flavor of Chinese] and actually passing an exam are two different things.

Again, I am not saying it is unfair for country officials to expect whatever language level they want. It is their country and their rules. As far as I understand nobody's talking about giving away passports.

It's just when it's relatively more difficult for skilled immigrants to find employment and interact with said officials without high level (at least B2) German, some of these immigrants will chose in favor of the countries- with easier/more widely used languages and/or more jobs in English or just lower taxes and higher pay.

If a country's government wants to attract these kinds of immigrants, some of these variables will have to change

[vachina]

Exactly. Your life will be easier if you have B1. Your correspondence with everything is in German.

[moomoo11]

nah. i speak english and have zero interest in learning another language.

english is the best language for business and everything else.

[dbetteridge]

Then don't move to a country that has another language as a requirement?