[earth-tattoo]

It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps, but we can't do vice versa. OSM should change their license to something like if you use our data, you have to make yours open as well.

[JacobKfromIRC]

The license seems to already require this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/

Maybe I am misunderstanding the summary, but it says: "If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL." <https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/>

[mips_avatar]

Yeah the problem is what's considered an adapted database. If it was strict it would mean apps like Alltrails (which is 90% openstreetmaps data) would need to list their trailmaps as open databases, but they don't.

[cwillu]

The problem is that factual details aren't copyrightable in the first place, so no amount of licensing will prevent organizations with enough money to pay a lawyer from understanding this and using the data as they see fit. And on the flip side, those organizations can pay those same lawyers to write scary boilerplate to make it seem like their map data is “proprietary” and therefore “protected by copyright” even though it isn't.

[bluGill]

Maps Traditionally have a few intentional errors because those are copyright, in turn meaning if one is found you can sue for copyright violations.

[cwillu]

I know that's the common story, but I have never seen any actual court cases confirming that theory; certainly the recoverable damages from such copying such an error would be minuscule.

[technothrasher]

Wikipedia has an entry that lists a few court cases, mostly showing that this strategy, as you surmise, fails to stand up in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry

[maxerickson]

They probably aren't really using the OSM data.

For example, if I use Google Maps to drive to a new neighborhood and then take a bunch of notes about the new neighborhood, my notes are not subject to the terms and conditions of Google Maps.

[pteraspidomorph]

> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps

If only. Maps are still super broken around where I live. I personally mapped everything in OSM (which thankfully is used by most third party services these days) a couple years ago, but Maps is still people's primary source for routing and traffic related stuff.

[cwillu]

Various driving/delivery apps ultimately use OSM data. Doordash and instacart both use it to various degrees via mapbox, for instasnce.

[cube00]

As evil as they are, it's hearting to see the delivery platforms are embracing OSM when they could probably afford to just pay for Google's Maps API.

It gives hope that Google/ESRI won't always be the dominant mapping platform, however OSM is still missing a lot of local businesses which the delivery platforms don't need as urgently as house numbers so there's less focus there.

[Aachen]

> It gives hope that Google/ESRI won't always be the dominant mapping platform

Are they? I get the impression that only consumer-facing stuff is Google, to give people a familiar color scheme¹ as well as allow terribly formatted search queries to still work (if google can do one thing it's search). However, anything using geo data in a back-end fashion seems about evenly split between government base maps, OpenStreetMap, and a collection of misc providers that Google is one of

¹ conversely, I struggle to find my home town on Google Maps. It's all about vague, washed-out shapes, besides the bright shop icons and, nowadays, advertising pins. It's a matter of what you're used to so I can very much understand that the average consumer, who's less familiar with maps than me, is totally lost when getting Carto as a map

[patmorgan23]

Lyft even pays people to contribute to OSM

[Aachen]

Many companies do. Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, TomTom, Über, Komoot, VKontakte; I see German, Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish local governments mentioned; Austrian emergency dispatch; USA school bus operator...

Full list: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activi...

It's more surprising at this point that Google isn't getting in on the fun, at least taking the good bits and calling their own data a 'separate layer' so they don't have to contribute anything back. (And of course no Chinese companies, since accurate maps are illegal there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...)

[Acrobatic_Road]

How do I get a job like this? Should I just email the team leads or is it the kind of job that's done in-person in another country?

[SchemaLoad]

OSM is actually perfectly sufficient if you just want street and address data. This stuff gets pulled in from official government sources so it's all present and up to date.

Where it's lacking is business info since this has to be entered manually and changes much more often than streets or buildings change.

[pferde]

I'd like to point out that it only "gets pulled in" if the data is actually made available by the government, and there are dedicated volunteers who work on getting the data, massaging it into the right format and importing it into OSM, and that is not the case in many countries.

[cwillu]

Not to mention the occasional drift between what's on paper and what's actually been built.

[pferde]

Yeah, that's a whole different kettle of waspnests. :)

[pbmonster]

The thing lacking even more is a good search engine. Doesn't matter how complete the database is when search keeps missing text appearing verbatim in a label.

[cwillu]

This is the problem with using vector search for everything: there is no “verbatim” when the corpus and the search are both converted to a vector, and not necessarily using exactly the same transform.

[SchemaLoad]

If you are a delivery company or such paying for mapbox you can build your own solution and get better quality than the open source general purpose apps.

[krzyk]

If google does that, then they do a poor job at that. In Europe OSM is way more detailed and up to date than Google Maps.

[GreyStache]

Change that to definitely. I added a brand-new road on OSM and a week later it was on google maps.

[plorg]

On the other hand, I've been trying to submit changes to Google for several new and vacated roads for over a year (having already updated OSM) and they are constantly rejected. I suspect it is much more that their updates are responsive to car traffic. The segments I'm submitting are or were low-traffic although they include a road that a local municipality has directed people to in official communication for overflow yard waste after some big, recent storms.

[juliangmp]

I had a similar experience with Google Maps, I used to live in a place where the house on Google maps was located on the wrong street, like one parallel street off. I put in a few requests from time to time because deliveries were a huge pain, to no avail. I opened a thread on some Google forum or support place and then it was mentioned that I actually can't change that because only the city is allowed to... why I get the option in the app I don't fully understand. At some point it got fixed but I have no idea why. Of course it was a few months before I moved out

[ygra]

Google can cheat a little, especially for new roads since they notice when someone is driving over it. When there was a redesign of an intersection near here, someone marked the road as completed in OSM maybe half an hour after it was opened (we have a few quite active mappers), and Google had it open about two hours later and I suspect no one changed the data directly.

[ssl-3]

Waze definitely does this[1]. As a map editor, I can mark a road segment as closed and it will stay closed for as long as I say, unless reverted by another editor or traffic is observed moving through that closed segment (based on parameters that they set).

This kind of cheating usually works extremely well, from my observation.

Anyhow, Google owns Waze and data goes back and forth between there and Google Maps. They're like two heads of the same snake, so it's implicit that the same thing also works on Google Maps.

[1]: https://www.waze.com/discuss/t/closures/374712#p-2273808-aut...

[ronnier]

They probably do. I’m thankful for every contributor because each edit makes my Tesla that much better

[pbmonster]

> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps

No way they are doing this deliberately globally. My city has a lot of pedestrian stairs interconnecting roads, and not a single one is on GMaps. If you navigate on foot, it will send you on walks 2x-3x longer than necessary.

OSMand and CoMaps reliably find the shortest way. And can tell you the pavement type, number of steps, stroller ramp and hand rail situation of every single one of those stairs.

Google has a really hard time adding roads without frequent car traffic, I think.