[parheric]

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives.

The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are).

The good part, from my experience the people here are great, friendly, and yeh it takes time to get to know them but it pays off in the long run. But professionally... it's complicated.

So while people come here, work and stay for a few years, they're going to leave when they realise that despite their best efforts, they need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on).

And this sadly affects applications for jobs (a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK), apply for apartments (which country is your last name from... automatic rejection), just to mention a few key cases that really affect immigration.

i've lived+worked in 4 different countries on 3 continents and i think you always have to expect to adjust to the culture, it's not going to change for you, nor should it. But if you want to progress professionally (and Germany NEEDS tech-imports, the tech culture here is a disaster, it's embarrassing) you're going to have to promote these people into high positions, not just view them as "cheaper labour".

[aleph_minus_one]

> hey need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on).

Staying in a position for a long part of one's life is a very common situation for many Germans, too. The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality.

So, I have a strong feeling that a lot of immigrants who feel they hit a glass ceiling are rather used to the USA understanding how a career works, and think because they are not promoted, they are discriminated against, when in reality it's rather that a promotion to a completely new role/title is much more uncommon in Germany than in the USA.

[avemuri]

I think this is the type of answer that is frustrating to non-Germans. Hey don't look at that person who got promoted ahead of you despite you being more qualified. Look here instead at all these other people who didn't get promoted.

[carlosjobim]

> The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality.

But it makes more sense. If you're a normal human being, the longer you work with something the better you become at it. That's just natural. And then you should have your compensation increased to reflect that, or move to other ventures where your skills have better use.

[aleph_minus_one]

> or move to other ventures where your skills have better use.

Switching the job too often is a red flag for many companies in Germany.

The system in Germany is based on the idea that it should both not be so easy to quit your position at the company and for the company to fire you (cancellation periods hold for both sides).

[carlosjobim]

Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

[aleph_minus_one]

> Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

I am not so sure whether it's about "skilled":

If you want a fast career, Germany is likely not for you. On the other hand, if you simply want to apply your great skills in a job, I wouldn't say that Germany is a bad place: I would even claim because the skills are much more appreciated by companies in Germany, the system is rather centered around that you tend to stay in a position where your skills are of a lot of use.

So, I am certain that it is not about "skilled", but about "having the expectation to rise up in some arbitrarily set up career ladder". This is something very different from being skilled!

[carlosjobim]

But nothing is arbitrary about people becoming better at what they do, and thus deserving at least better compensation. Of course companies appreciate an employee who just becomes better at her job every day while remaining on the same pay. Who wouldn't like to benefit from such an idiot? "A lot of use" - cool - but that should translate into a lot of compensation.

If you ask people, the majority would probably be happy staying at the same job, but getting better paid as they become better at the job. You can do that without having to set up some career ladder, and a lot of smart companies do.

[gehwartzen]

One thing I will point out is that some of this partially due to coming to Germany with a US passport. Specifically, banks in Europe are increasingly weary of allowing US passport holders to open full account due to the international reach of the IRS and the additional bourdons it creates for banks. A US citizen living abroad still has a responsibilities with regard to reporting financial activities to the IRS. This is an extra liability and risk for foreign banks so in many cases they chose to simply not deal with Americans.

I was born in Germany and have a German passport. When I was a teen my family moved to the US and and have since also gotten my American citizenship. I have been considering moving back. I talked to my aunt who lives in Switzerland who told me not to bother trying to open a Swiss account it’s virtually impossible as long as you have a US passport. Germany is slightly better but at most there are 2-3 (mainly online only) banks where you might be able to get a basic (ie bare bones) account.

The IRS has the ability to compel foreign banks to freeze assets of US citizens living abroad or at least to make it a paperwork nightmare for them. I can understand why a company might not want to promote an individual to senior positions if banks are weary of dealing with them.

[Cyph0n]

This is the case virtually everywhere thanks to FATCA, unless the country’s banking system is OK with getting punished. It applies not just to US citizens, but also to US permanent residents.

[FabCH]

Your aunt is sort of correct, but not really.

If you move to CH on your German EU passport, register at the local authorities and get your residency card, most traditional Swiss banks will open an account for you. You just won’t be able to do it online or with the Neo-banks. But an actual physical UBS office or Kantonbank will eventually be able to handle the paperwork for you.

[hparadiz]

I thought it was a regular thing for Americans or anyone in the world to be able to make a Swiss account? Is that not the case? Or is it different if you live there?

[FabCH]

If you are not a resident, don’t bother trying unless you plan to have 30M or more in the account.

If you are a resident, you can easily open a normal account in minutes… unless you are US, Russian or Belarus citizen.

[mamonster]

>If you are not a resident, don’t bother trying unless you plan to have 30M or more in the account.

If you are UHNW every single bank, from private(Pictet etc) to universal, will bend over to have you. For US accounts it depends heavily on what you want to do with it. If it is just to keep your money and do investments by yourself 500k will be more than enough. It will be expensive in terms of trading fees/money transfer fees/ etc versus neobanks but that's the way it is.

The issues come if you want a wealth advisor. There are not that many wealth advisors with an SEC license (required to manage US clients) and most of them simply won't assume the risk unless they can have 1.5mio USD to manage, with something like 0.6% - 0.8% management fees p.a. Below 500k forget it because then you are categorised a private client according to FINMA and it is a pain in the ass compliance wise.

>If you are a resident, you can easily open a normal account in minutes

Depends which bank. Cantonal Bank have fun.

[Laurel1234]

I've opened (and used) a Dukascopy account with neither a Swiss passport nor even setting foot in Switzerland.

And I can vouch I had significantly less than 30M haha.

[hparadiz]

Yea it's weird what people on HN will say with no actual first hand experience.

[FabCH]

It’s a very expensive bank.

Compared to a normal Swiss bank: CHF wire transfer and EUR SEPA wire transfers are usually free of charge. Dukascopy charges 2.30 for each CHF or EUR transfer and 19 USD for each USD wire, on top of 0.50% currency conversion.

And, their FAQ clearly states they don’t accept US citizens.

[hparadiz]

I was more thinking a brokerage account for typical stock / index fund investing.

[FabCH]

No chance.

Also, really expensive.

[izacus]

No, most Swiss banks outside something like UBS will these days outright reject anyone with US reporting requirements.

("Private" banks for very wealthy are another thing, but a software engineer isn't their customer.)

[whateverboat]

I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

[parheric]

Bang on... it's initially about opportunity. But when that runs out, people move on.

And with the offer of DE citizenship where you're not giving up your birth citizenship, most people will take it, and move somewhere else in EU with a shiney new DE passport.

[Schlagbohrer]

Where else will they move to in the EU to "hit it big" and "become rich"? Netherlands? Ireland? Malta?

[FinnLobsien]

This has been true, but I think that promise of middling comfort is being eroded.

[rdtsc]

> Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

Just curious how well does that work? I assume it’s being able to have a job, have a place to live, travel once a year. Medical care not tied to employment but hopefully easily accessible?

[4gotunameagain]

This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.

[rawbot]

I agree with the feeling, but the market doesn't. Inflation in the last 8 years has been slowly strangling families. And that's without mentioning the fact that owning an apartment or home is basically impossible without inheritance or being upper-class.

So for most middle-class families, the work grind will continue for the rest of their life, until retirement (if it even exists by then), without anything to show for it (owning the place you live in). How are people even going to be able to pay for their rent between retirement (67 years old) and assisted living (+75 years old)?

[account42]

Inflation outpacing median income is a symptom of wealth inequality.

[odiroot]

And you believe Germany somehow avoided it? Nice one.

Don't worry, wealthy people manage fine in Germany and multiply their capital.

It's just a glass ceiling on a middle class.

[ecshafer]

There is a level where it's probably bad (France, Russia, China prior to revolutions). But wealth equality (Russia, China, Cambodia, all of eastern Europe, Cuba, etc. AFTER revolutions) seems to be infinitely more destructive.

[TFYS]

The issue is concentration of power. Wealth inequality is just one way destructive levels of power concentration can happen. We need low wealth inequality along with truly democratic government.

[whateverboat]

Yeah, these people are not looking to become super rich. They are coming from very poor backgrounds (compared to median wealth in Germany) and they want to reach upper middle class levels (wealth wise, not income wise) for those countries.

[inigyou]

It has to be balanced against forward progress.

[Arnt]

Uh-huh.

A small town where I've lived was very much like its neighbours, but one particular neigbour was different in two clearly visible ways: ① there were (still are) more rich people in that neighbour and ② it was much easier to get financing for starting and growing companies in that neighbour.

[jmyeet]

One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility?

It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to make ends meet in most cases now. This is a form of coercion.

This is orthogonal to the issue of German social inclusion and forms of xenophobia (eg in the housing applications you mention).

Personally I'd rather in a society where everyone's needs are met and it's not a race against a rising tide where only 20% of the population are above it.

[carlosjobim]

> by definition, only so many people can get ahead

That's the core of the great lie which so massively limits people.

Everybody can get ahead. It's not about comparing yourself with others - and has never been about that. That's school boy logic, to think in limited terms like that.

Can all members of an orchestra become better musicians, even though some will still be better than others? Can all members of a football team become better players?

You can always become better at what you do, no matter what other people are doing. You are almost guaranteed to become better at what you do, if you're doing it everyday. The purpose of a business is to deliver productivity to the purchaser. The purpose of employing workers is for them to do work. As they become better at their work, they will produce more and should be paid more and given more responsibilities. Internal company hierarchy has little to do with it. It's not about getting in front of the other guy.

[parheric]

I don’t think it’s a question of needing anything. Do you need to immigrate to Germany? Or another country for that matter?

No - why do you do it? For upward mobility in a job market that is screaming out for foreign skilled workers.

When that upward mobility is no longer there, why should they stay?

[Schlagbohrer]

There are other reasons such as better quality of life as a working class person, which one can have in many EU countries, but cannot have in the USA.

[programmertote]

That sounds similar to what you experience in the US especially as a first gen immigrant. I see a glass ceiling (for the lack of a better word) here. Most of the leadership positions are occupied by US-born (mostly Caucasian) and/or to some degree, Indian immigrants. Sometimes, I truly wonder how/why this person got into the leadership role because it's fairly obvious that s/he lacks the essential qualities required for it. The only explanation is the politicking (typical in the corporate world) and somehow being able to impress others by talking fast and/or smooth (while giving false promises and failing upward).

All of this to say that your observation in Germany doesn't sound that different from mine in the US (been here for over 20+ years; been in a manager/director role in data for almost a decade).

[hunterpayne]

Have you ever worked for a European company? You could say the exact same things about every country on the planet except the US version is probably less extreme. Also the US companies are probably more complex to run so its more visible. I once worked for a company that probably manages some of your retirement. They had a team of 50 people working on a compiler for an internal language. Not a single person on that team knew how to actually write a compiler and the executive in charge was both the most arrogant and least capable executive I have ever worked with. So the idea that this is somehow US specific is pretty absurd.

[programmertote]

I think you misunderstood my comment. What I'm saying is that the same issue can be observed in the US (i.e., it's not Germany specific).

[laylower]

You are right I think - but this is the case for everywhere besides startups in the US

Try going to Singapore, Japan, the UK, Netherlands, god forbid France, Germany, Latin America. Try going into engineering in major US companies - you know how hiring works and who is prioritized over whom.

If you are not local or you are not part of the inner circle of management the glass ceiling is there.

Some would say that it's just empirical evidence and they never had this problem. I would call them lucky.

[dgellow]

Just to add, the experience can be quite different between Bundesland (for example the tech culture in Berlin can be really decent IMHO). And the Bewerbungsfoto is technically not allowed to be required (but often expected in practice, though I personally don’t remember sending one).

Overall that comment sounds quite true based on my experience. I had a way better time contracting for foreign companies from Germany

[zihotki]

That resonates a lot with my experience in Netherlands. It's way friendlier for expats but the barrier is there

[blablabla123]

> a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK

I work since over 15 years as SWE and have been job hopping most of the time. Only during one job hunt I put a (professional) photo on my CV. While a photo on the CV is obviously not illegal, employers aren't allowed to demand it since 2 decades. But I agree there is a bias.

While I'm fully German so to say, I have a foreign last name literally from centuries ago. For most of the time this was never an issue, at best a conversation starter. But companies where the daily language is German (hint: these companies usually suck) I definitely had weird situations before. Also with some recruiters, especially from the UK.

[Derbasti]

The problem is, management requires stronger language skills than engineering.

While an engineer can usually get by with good English, a manager in a German company with German clients and German bosses also requires excellent command of German. I would think that this would equally apply to any other country and their native language.

Perhaps Germany is a bit unusual in that it fosters a strong small-company culture, with few levels of management. There is no "engineering ladder" in a company with only a single layer of management between engineers and CEO.

[IAmBroom]

[flagged]

[dang]

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[arjie]

> > > The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are).

Can someone explain what the "strongest plausible interpretation of this" is in this context? It sounds like straightforward xenophobia from the Germans but the other guy who said so got flagged by the moderator. That implies that the strong interpretation is entirely obvious but I don't know what it is, and I can't get it out of an LLM. If it were that anyone takes a long time before they're trusted, that's institutional slowness. If the slowness is reserved for an "outsider" and not for a "native" then that feels like the natural interpretation is xenophobia.

I can understand why a foreigner in Germany (the outsider here) would be hesitant to say anything so I understand that part.

[dang]

You're adding a lot of assumptions in order to reach that conclusion.

Generally it's not a good idea to reduce someone else's comment to a blunt denunciation, and especially not when you're adding a putdown of your own ("that is a LOT of words"). The commenter was obviously offering a complex expression of their experience and not just circomlocuting a crudity.

[arjie]

I assume you mean "you" here in the sense of "one" because I didn't say those other things. And certainly the "that is a lot of words" framing is something I personally dislike as well, but the conclusion seems accurate, doesn't it?

If German companies routinely have a glass ceiling for foreigners that they don't have for natives then surely in the American context we'd consider that bigotry of some sort and certainly if it were in the US we'd consider it a Title VII violation of the CRA on the basis of national origin.

I think it would help to provide an example by construction: relax one or more of the assumptions you think are being smuggled in and describe how it is not xenophobia to do what the German organizations OP was at were doing. I'm struggling to come up with something here - some kind of cultural mismatch not related to language fluency?

What it seems to me is that the OP, immigrant that he is, is describing a fairly xenophobic society that he nonetheless has to live in and is therefore not using explicit labels for.