[schnitzelstoat]

I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then.

But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.

I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.

It didn't seem like an especially friendly place and there were so many rules about everything too, like just being able to take the rubbish or recycling out you had specific days and times.

[ForHackernews]

This is funny because when I moved from the USA to UK I was caught off guard by "Sunday trading laws"[0] and even where not legally prohibited, it seems like most retailers other than vape stores or corner shops close at 5:30 or 6 pm, Since covid, we have to book an appointment in advance to go to the tip.

I think things have improved a little bit over the past few years – one large retail park near us advertises "late opening" (7 pm! ha!) on Thursdays — but it's still difficult to run errands during the week. I don't understand why it makes sense economically to only have your store open when no one with a 9-5 job can shop there.

[0] https://www.gov.uk/trading-hours-for-retailers-the-law

[kuerbel]

I'm from Switzerland and live in Germany and I think it is very relaxed. Too relaxed for my liking to be honest. Sometimes the bins are still out in the evening??? What kind of anarchy is this ;-)

Really, it's just what you are accustomed with.

Stores closing on Sunday is a good thing I think, it makes it easier for families to have a day together and kind of resets the week. On Saturdays they are also open until 8pm, some even until 10pm or so.

>I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them.

You need to yell "Moin" very loudly. If you are in Southern Germany, you need to yell "MOIN" twice as loud to establish dominance.

[Kurtz79]

https://i.imgur.com/Eheu90I.png

[eunos]

For all of Germany discourse on punctuality they could at least start with DB

[joshvm]

Any expat who has lived in Europe knows the pain of having to run to the train station on a Sunday because you ran out of some ingredient.

[panick21_]

Totally agree. Living in Berlin as Swiss person is crazy. You have shops open for so long. Late trains. Crazy partys and so on. Complete chaos with garbage and things like that.

I don't mind closed on Sunday but I wish we had a bit more stores open until a bit later. My parents were in health care so for me people working late or nights was always normal.

[ido]

Supermarket opening times are definitely not that restrictive (these days, but I don't recall it ever being like you mentioned & I moved to Berlin in 2013). The ones near me are usually open early morning till late evening (8-10pm), monday to saturday.

[myrmidon]

There is a lot of regional variation, mainly between the south and the rest of the country. 8am to 8pm monday to saturday is typical for Bavaria (Munich, Nuremberg).

[throw-the-towel]

The way you call 8pm "late evening" confirms GP's experience :)

[annzabelle]

Not Germany, but I live in a rural part of New Zealand. I noticed that several places in my town, including the chippy, had signs posted out front saying they were open til "late." Coming from the eastern US I assumed that late was at the earliest 11 or 12. Watch my surprise when I try to go get fish and chips at 8:45 and the chippy is already closed.

[ido]

8-10pm for the supermarkets near me & well later than that is night not evening :) It's certainly not 5pm is what I meant.

[gib444]

Have you visited London recently? Particularly east. It's got the unfriendliness but also complete total breakdown of the social contract and social decency

Music and video calls without headphones on all transport all the time. Shoes and socks off on train seats. Zombies barging into you constantly. Nobody letting people off the train.

Throwing rubbish on the ground. Leaving it on trains and buses.

Vaping on the tube

Pushing through the barriers at stations is normalised

Everyone does whatever the hell they like everywhere all the time. Constant antisocial behaviour. It's hell. An absolute epicenter of selfishness

I dream of a rule based society like Germany or UK of years ago

Edit: am a Brit but wouldn't live in London for love nor money. Obviously a lot of those issues aren't just in London. This isn't "foreigner repeating right wing talking points" people love trying here

[NicuCalcea]

I agree with the breakdown of the social contract in London, but not with the unfriendliness. I've lived in the UK for eight years and have travelled to many parts of England and Wales.

I've never felt as unwelcome in London as I do almost every time I leave it. Constant suspicious looks, questions about who I am and what the purpose of me being there is, the occasional downright xenophobia.

To give you a recent example, just a couple of weeks ago I was in a supermarket in Bangor stocking up on some water ahead of a hike in the Lake District. My train was delayed, and I am now about to miss the last bus for the next two hours (still needed the water). I explain this to the guy ahead of me in the queue, asking if I could maybe jump ahead of him. He looks at me, says "No", laughs, and then proceeds to scan his items as slowly as he can. Not everyone is like that, but this kind of thing happens all the time.

I definitely believe that you'll feel more of a sense of belonging outside London if you're a local, but as a non-local, it is not friendly at all. And the further away from Britain you are from (geographically and culturally), the worse you are treated. I noticed the difference in reaction when I told people I am Moldovan compared with my ex-partner telling them she is Dutch, and my non-white friends tell me stories that are even worse. London can be unfriendly and isolating, but I'd never live outside London and a few of the other cosmopolitan cities.

[gib444]

I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Yes it can be very insular and can take many years to even begin being treated like a local (it's not until you have a kid, so I'm told).

I'm treated with suspicion too. A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc.

And your anecdote about that guy: exactly what I'm saying. Everyone out for themselves. Selfish. Unrelated to racism or xenophobia etc

But are you saying in London everyone falls over themselves to hold open doors, let you skip queues, always waits for people to get off the train first, nobody barges past anyone, every single shop worker says "hello good morning" "thank you" "have a great day"...? What acts of making you feel welcome exist in London that doesn't elsewhere in the country?

edit: And you started "I agree...but not with the unfriendliness" then ended with "London can be unfriendly" so I'm a bit confused :D

[NicuCalcea]

I don't have any identical comparisons of politeness in London and the rest of the UK, but subjectively I do feel people in London are more likely to hold doors, let me skip queues, etc. There's just more of a feeling that we're all trying to navigate life in the city together, rather than gatekeeping each other's presence in it.

It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?".

There is definitely a lot of veiled and outright racism and xenophobia though. I've heard things like "your English is actually pretty good" (I was a BBC journalist, it's better than theirs), "at least you're not on benefits", "at least your people are not as bad as X". I've never been told these things in London.

[gib444]

> It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?".

It's funny I find the complete opposite. I've been in London visiting for a week and it's been an absolute chore getting anyone to respond to "good morning" in a cafe or shop. Too many who barely speak English, don't tell me what the total is, do little more than grunt. Every order even for a simple black coffee involves an annoying back and front of "warmorice?" "Sorry?" "warmorice". Oh you mean "is that hot or iced coffee?"

A lot of it is racism and xenophobia (and I do acknowledge you may have been on the receiving end too). Many shops are staffed 100% by Asians now.

Yes HN, racism against white people / xenophobia towards British people exists.

Which part of London do you usually frequent out of interest? North or South West...?

I very much can imagine if you hang around with a lot of foreigners/non Londoners in London there's a shared experience there and a support network. You have a common background and 'struggle' of surviving London. What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England? Do you understand their perspective? Their struggles? Something to ponder perhaps

[NicuCalcea]

> What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England?

That's the point of being polite, treating people decently even if you have little in common.

Clearly we have different experiences and that's fine, we both seem to have found where we're comfortable.

[graemep]

> I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from.

Me too, but people have been pretty friendly and welcoming, and i have not been here long.

> A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc.

People in the north seem to make a bigger deal me being a southerner (and my accent) than non-white. Of course there is a bias because expressing the former is a lot more socially acceptable.

[gib444]

And Northerners have real, genuine grievances with the south (ie London/Westminster) and it's not for us to wag our fingers and say they ought to have open arms and love one and all. Understanding is key.

Agree with the bias. They're far less obvious about their issues with race. Eg there are people on my street who, if the local corner shop were the only shop in the country, would sooner starve than spend any money at a business run by a Pakistani family. I frequent it but not much because: most prices are not displayed, things are often out of date, offers are not honoured etc far more than any other shop in the area. (This is of course racism xenophobia etc blah blah to point this out.) When I nicely tried to raise the various issues the whole family turned against me - they take my money but that's it

[wvbdmp]

We have all those things in Germany, including the converse stereotype that Brits like to queue and act proper and polite.

Guess we both need to redirect our fantasies of civility to Japan or something.

[push0ret]

Of course it's people who don't even live in London who paint completely skewed pictures of the city. It's sad to see how much negative propaganda is being spread to induce fear, uncertainty and doubt. Why are you doing this?

Yes, almost everything you mentioned happens. You're probably going to come across some of it if you spend a bit more time here, and in some areas more than others. But you are exaggerating it all significantly - in reality these things are sporadic nuisances and it is SO far away from "everybody does what the hell they like" (implying lawlessness). Shameful really that you participate in this spread of bullshit about an amazing city.

[throw-the-towel]

Oh blimey, what a defensive post. Not everyone who dares to criticise your city is a paid outsider shill, chill down.

[gib444]

Not every defensive post is an accusation of shilling. I did no such thing

I got accused of propaganda and FUD. And I got told by a non Brit that I'm not allowed an opinion.

I responded entirely appropriately

[gib444]

Present your credentials. I'm from the south of England, my family lives in London, I spend plenty of time in London. I don't need your blessing to criticise the capital of the country I was born in.

Are you even British? If not, who the hell do /you/ think you are to accuse me of propaganda? I can tell you're not a native English speaker

> in reality these things are sporadic nuisances

THIS is the real propaganda

[push0ret]

I straight up just live there, can you imagine? Every day!

[graemep]

> Have you visited London recently?

I have and did not experience any of that. Not all that different from when I last lived there in the last 90s.

[TMWNN]

>But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done.

If it were the Anglosphere that had very restrictive laws about store hours/days of operation, and Germany/Austria with pretty much unlimited hours, this would be the #1 topic brought up in any online discussion whatsoever about the US/UK/etc. But because of DACH's smaller cultural visibility, it isn't brought up nearly so often in actuality.

[red-iron-pine]

to quote a relative "Germany is a great country to live in, except for all of the Germans"

[cmrdporcupine]

This is what my German father always said. Partially why he moved to Canada in the 60s. Partially a feeling of claustrophobia around rules and regulations. And lack of uncontrolled access to nature, lack of real wilderness, etc.

I kind of get it. I found my German grandparents baffling at some level. Simultaneously extremely warm and generous but at the same time intensely critical and harsh at times. My Oma was perhaps warmer on account of being Alsatian, but we had a language barrier.

Visiting Germany for the first time when I was 19 was a bit of a brain-melting experience. Like a bunch of things about my father finally made sense.

[ant6n]

I thought that’s what they say about Berlin

[maccard]

It’s funny you give out about supermarket opening hours when being English - Sunday trading laws are arcane in England too!

[sph]

I remember visiting London and being surprised that pubs would close at 11pm and night life, outside of clubs, would pretty much die. In the largest city in Europe! Mad stuff.

When I moved back to Italy I had forgotten that shops close between 13 and 15:30. Every country has their own little quirks

[maccard]

Yep! I used to live in Ireland and pubs being closed on Good Friday was like the end of the world.

[rsynnott]

Not just pubs; it was also off-licenses. The Thursday before at my local supermarket was always like the apocalypse, with people panic-buying booze.

There were some weird exceptions to the rule, too; in particular you could buy alcohol on trains.

[disgruntledphd2]

And in train stations and airports!

I kinda miss the old Good Friday laws, it made it a great day for parties as all the pubs were closed.