| I don't agree that my argument was a "No true Scotsman", since the argument made above (as far as I read it) was that "all PhDs are a waste of time". My counterargument was that the PhD, if done right according to its purpose, is not a waste of time. That is not the same as asserting that all PhDs are going to be good, and then refining the definition. > i grew up in math where novel work meant a truly original theorem I am in the math department and work with geometric analysts and combinatorialists, but mostly with CS researchers. I work with math and CS students. My entire education was analysis, then pure probability theory. Just for some context. And while CS has a lot of problems, math does too, unfortunately. A theorem may be original, but that doesn't make the work good. > bro you are so out of touch it's laughable. there are departments full of your so-called "not true advisors". Your experience, not mine. Regarding "out of touch": I've supervised across five different universities, all (apparently) in the top 100 worldwide. There has been a quality supervisor in each department I have come across. They may be in the minority, but they exist. They tend to not have many students, because it is virtually impossible to give adequate supervision to more than ~5 students at any one time. > you recommend to them they what? transfer schools? I now live in a country where that is easy to do, so yes I do, and yes I have. I have had friends that were "forced" to grind in a bad supervisory relationship for a while until they found another better supervisor and then had a good experience. I understand it is more difficult in a country where you cannot easily transfer. In those cases, I would 100% suggest dropping the degree early before wasting time and money on it, but naturally it depends a lot on their situation. A bad PhD can be a lot worse than no PhD. > that kind of quality is 1/1000 in neurips. I've found the proportion is more like 1/100 in the theory domain, but yes, there is a lot of rubbish in NeurIPS. There is a lot of rubbish in every venue. > attend a US T10 I did a lengthy postdoc at one of these. They are largely paper mills by construction. A top 500 most cited researcher got that way because they run a paper mill. I did not associate with the students there very much, and I doubt that they thrived there either, other than getting a nice item on their CV. On the other hand, that institution benefited me at the time. I'm glad I did my education somewhere else. > there is literally no program. you're completely full of shit. there is no "standardized phd". every single department around the world completely makes it up to be whatever they want. Yes, which is why your experience is not necessarily indicative of that of others. That's a good thing. > the illusion that academia was a priesthood in pursuit of truth/knowledge/beauty/whatever I won't disagree that academia is a cesspit and I would exit if I felt I had the opportunity to do good elsewhere. I actively do not recommend it to anybody that feels they could do anything else. But there certainly are people that benefit from the PhD, so calling it useless is a bit much. > have you looked at the mirror recently? the frustration comes not from the craven/mercenary individuals who admit their cravenness - it comes from gaslighters like you who claim there's some idealized version of it that exists that everyone supposedly falls short of (hint hint: have you ever heard of this convenient concept of original sin?). I love the insinuation that I must be an evil prick. This is tantamount to hearing from a victim that all X are evil. I respect your position and your experiences, but also recognize you do not speak for the entire world in this matter. The bad supervisors tend to excel in their metrics nowadays (including how many students they have), so their perceived presence is disproportional. > in addition i got a job in FAANG so that was a nice consolation prize Good for you! If that was always an option, I would question the PhD too. Telling others your own experiences to warn those away from academia is perfectly fine, unless having that degree did help get you to that point. If you honestly know that having the PhD on your CV did nothing at all for you, and did not positively influence your chances, then this is fair, and I would recommend teaching others how they can avoid doing the PhD to get into those roles. Yes, people get FAANG jobs without doing higher education, but was everyone going to take that route? Otherwise, you are in the ivory tower telling others that they shouldn't come in. |
the insinuation is that there is deep, rich, delicious, irony in someone writing this
> The program doesn't work for everyone, but it does have a purpose, and it is frustrating when selfish academics bastardize that purpose to give this kind of false impression of the degree.
after giving everyone reading a false impression of what a PhD is worth. ie you sound extremely selfish yourself when you use phrases like
"Maybe you did get that but you aren't using it in your job; if so, then maybe you didn't need that PhD, but that's hardly the fault of the degree."
and
"PhD is not about learning content. It's about picking up research independence, confidence, and a strong capacity for critique."
and
"No, this is precisely what the PhD is supposed to be for. It should be the most challenging topic of your entire early career, or your supervisor wasted your time. You have a handful of years to impress people, so they have to count."
ie ludicrous absolutist terms.
> Otherwise, you are in the ivory tower telling others that they shouldn't come in.
...are you a native english speaker? the ivory tower is academia. i am emphatically (as i've been emphasizing for 2 hours now) not in the ivory tower and i advocate for everyone to avoid the god forsaken place no matter what.
> Yes, people get FAANG jobs without doing higher education
the vast vast majority of my coworkers have BS/MS. the two best engineers i know (extremely successful ICs) have only a BS. the other PhDs i meet in industry are generally worthless "architects" who can't hack their way out of a paper bag.
EDIT:
it's amazing to me that the conflict of interest here isn't front and center: you're still in academia recruiting students! of course it's critical for you that the dream of academia lives on! if you had any integrity you would have disclaimed your conflict of interest at the outset.