[tangenter]

Completely unrelated but I find it amusing in a good way that Oblivion is recognized more favorably now. I never understood the disregard for it (horse armor nonsense aside), as it has a very compelling, unique atmosphere and a not so terrible storyline/writing.

[Auracle]

To me, the level scaling just completely annihilates the game. Why even have a leveling system if practically everything just stays leveled with you?

[somenameforme]

Exactly what I was going to say. Oblivion was the first Elder Scrolls game that had level scaling. It's just extremely lazy design that ruins any sense of progress/immersion. In Oblivion/Skyrim there are plenty of mods that remove the scaling, and end up with worlds that are vastly more interesting and immersive. I highly recommend Requiem.

[danielbln]

I hate hate hate level scaling. I believe they also introduced it to WoW, which ruins the power fantasy of going back to a lower level area and kicking butt, or the fear of venturing in a higher level area and hauling ass out of there. I agree, lazy game design.

[prerok]

I agree, I don't like it either. But... how would they then implement a world where you can wander everywhere? What it brings to the table is that you can wander across the world and not become terribly outmatched as soon as you wander "too soon" to an area.

My gaming preference is to go to an area as per game design, so the fact that I would be outmatched does not bother me and would prefer it that way. I do, however, understand why the game designers chose level scaling for what they wanted to achieve.

[klibertp]

As you note, being constrained in where you can go at level 1 is not a bad thing in itself, but it is a trade-off. Yes, as much as I personally don't mind it, I see how some players/designers might find such a limitation unfit for their game or not working for their playstyle.

You can still work around this without resorting to level scaling. You can give players an exploration option that avoids fighting, but sacrifices something else (ie., you can explore as a ghost, but can't take any loot with you). You can give low-level players some kind of newbie buff that will keep them alive (but won't allow them to win). You could make the perception of the world level dependent. You could also just scale locations or regions once, so that if a player reaches it at a low level, it'll become easier, and if you get there at a high level, it'll become the de facto endgame area. You could also just not implement leveling at all: The Bard's Tale (remake) was a bit like this.

Leveling up is not fun if it doesn't have an impact on how your character interacts with the world. If you're going to use level scaling to make leveling a no-op, it's often better to just go the action-adventure route and not pretend the game is an RPG. Seriously: what's the point of pumping my Strength stat if Villager A always has enough vitality to offset any gains on my part? It's especially grating if it's the same village and the same villager, revisited 40 hours later, and it still takes 3/4 of your health in a hit.

I don't think naive level scaling (Oblivion/Skyrim-style) is the right solution for "let the player go anywhere they want from the start". It's certainly a solution, but not a good one. A more nuanced mix of story justification, natural movement limitations (distance, special skills needed to get somewhere), level/area design (make areas with harder enemies less likely to be visited first), some non-combat exploration options, etc. all seem like a better way of letting the player experience open-world freedom without taking away the RPG progression "from zero to hero" from them.

I played a lot of Might and Magic VII back in the day (a few years before Morrowind IIRC). It was a huge world and you could go anywhere after getting off the tutorial island. Some endgame areas were gated behind lengthy quests, some areas were inaccessible without reaching them "the hard way" for the first time, others were impossible to reach without special skills or items, and there were skills/spells (invisibility, fly) that allowed safe passage through high-level areas if needed. Taken as a whole, it gave you a lot of options in terms of where to go at any given time, protected you to some extent from getting insta-killed because you made a wrong turn, but didn't make exploration trivial or level progression pointless. When you give players freedom, you should also allow them to commit suicide by charging at a horde of dragons while underleveled and underprepared. Trying to make the whole world immediately accessible is the kind of handholding that is actually limiting in the long run, and takes away an important part of the RPG experience. I don't think there are many CRPGs outside of TES that use level scaling - personally, I only experienced one in Wizardry 8, and it was way less absurd than Oblivion (areas had level ranges - you won't get an endgame area mob to be level 1 if you happen to reach it at that level yourself, and Villager A in starting area won't ever get to level 20 if you revisit it later).

So, between some limited/partial scaling and all the other design choices you could make, using Oblivion-like level scaling to "make the world accessible" is just bad, lazy design to me.

[klibertp]

I hate level scaling in games with passion. An argument in favor I heard is that it's supposed to make it easier for the player to go anywhere from the start. Maybe, but coming from classic CRPGs and some TRPG background, I just can't bring myself to understand that impulse: you see a world-ending dragon god destroying a castle, and you think it's a good idea to chase it to its lair... at level 1?? With a plank in hand and with a shirt as your armor??? It's absurd!

Then there's the "level up by doing" mechanic, which is a mixed bag. It can be done well, but in Oblivion, it only resulted in putting a book on the spacebar. Voila, my character literally jumps around and looks utterly idiotic, but Acrobatics levels rise.

Being unable to just go fight a dragon at level 1, and then progressing to routinely curbstomping dragons (Baldur's Gate 2 - solo Sorcerer run is my favorite example: "I see, you're resistant to magic. Let me introduce you to the Magic Sequencer with Lower Resistance x4. Time stop. Horrid wilting. Wish rest. Oh, I didn't need to, you're dead already.") by the end. It's not the only selling point of RPGs, and it can sometimes be omitted entirely (e.g., Disco Elysium). But if there is a classic leveling system, I expect it to work, from zero to hero. It's not as fun if the numbers going up don't translate into real changes in how your character interacts with the world.

[brendoelfrendo]

I think Oblivion's reception was mostly in relation to how people felt about Morrowind. Oblivion simplified a lot of what Morrowind did, which drew some ire. Atmospherically, though, people weren't happy that they moved from Morrowind's much more unique fantasy setting, full of massive fungi and swamp-striding bugs and weird demigods, and moved to a much more generic looking medieval countryside. That said, I also appreciate the game's reassessment, because I think some of the factions quest lines are among the best in the series.

[nottorp]

> unique atmosphere

You can only say unique atmosphere if you haven't played Morrowind :)

Add to that the level scaling stuff that simply kills any sense of progression.

Btw did you know that the optimal for Oblivion's main storyline is to not level at all, or at best level to 4? Because otherwise the enemies level scale but the NPC you're supposed to protect doesn't.

[account42]

Yeah the "class" system where the optimal route is to make your primary stats the ones you don't intend to use is the cherry on top of oblivion's stupid level scaling.

[nottorp]

... and as a consequence, if you play how you like and don't level up optimally, the level scaled mobs will oneshot you later because they have the same level as you and they are optimally leveled up ...

I believe they somewhat fixed it in Skyrim, but at the same time they made the world even more bland and generic northern fantasy. I've played a bit of both Oblivion and Skyrim and from what I remember Oblivion had colours while Skyrim doesn't.

[wqaatwt]

All Bethesda’s game generally suck without mods to a bigger or lesser extent. So it takes a while for a community of enthusiasts to appear but something like Oblivion or Skyrim were a much better experience 5-10 years after release than initially.

Of course then you have Starfield which is so unimaginable uninspiring that nothing can really be done to save it..