[IveSeenItAll]

Yeah, I have no idea how any of these figures are derived, but... I have a hard time imagining a planet where 1.8 weeks of our Polish employees and 2.7 weeks of our Dutch employees are 'lost due to sick leave' per annum.

Days? Maybe. Weeks? On average? Nah... But, please, do continue your explanations of "see, this is why Europe can't compete"

[317070]

I probably get there, but I have young kids.

But yes, these are averages between 1 person having 12 weeks and 12 people with 1 week. It's most likely power law distributed, so the average will feel weird.

There are people with cancer, severe car crashes and other horrible but temporary medical conditions in this average.

[IveSeenItAll]

> There are people with cancer

Oh, yeah, I know. One of our top (young! sad!) people in .nl has been intermittently-working for, like, months now due to that, unfortunately. But... that doesn't count as "sick leave"! Because, it's, like entirely foreseeable!

What is happening is that they, through the medical consultancy working for the employer (i.e. "us"), submit their proposed working schedule a few weeks in advance. This will have several 'non-work' days (around chemo), some 'partial-work' days, and so on, basically with hourly granularity.

"We" then plan and account accordingly: "we" pay for a few hours, insurance for a few, national-level insurance for a lot, but all "we" see is a plan for actual working time.

Conflating any of that with "oh, you can just stay home whenever you want" is sick and wrong, like so much of the discussion here around "Europe." I mean, you get eviscerated for wrongly naming a Chicago suburb, but blanket statements about an entire continent are de rigeur

[317070]

In the OECD data averaged here, I reckon this chemo therapy is counted as sick leave. On a first search, the metric seemed to be defined as "(compensated) absenteeism from work due to illness, days per employee per year"

[IveSeenItAll]

In .nl and even .pl, once someone gets into "chemo" territory, they're no longer a full-time employee for at least part of the year. I have no idea how this is reflected in OECD data, but I would not be entirely unsurprised if this is a reprise of the "women in .nl don't work" trope, whereas in-actual-fact it's sort-of the opposite, except not full-time.

[uniqueuid]

To put this into perspective, young children have an average amount of 16 colds per year (there's even a cool repo for incidence data, I suspect you could get more precise [1]). With an increasing number of parents both being in the labor market, and with childcare facilities increasingly (and rightfully IMO) refusing to take in sick kids, this means that parents need to take their own sick days to care for them.

It's difficult to do a back of the napkin calculation, but you can easily see how 16 colds x 3 days / 2 parents leads to 24 excess sick days for parents per kid (discounting for some overlap when multiple kids are sick) over the first few years.

[1] https://github.com/robert-koch-institut/GrippeWeb_Daten_des_...

[AnthonyMouse]

> But, please, do continue your explanations of "see, this is why Europe can't compete"

Okay, let's consider what laws like this (the existing one) do.

In the US most employers don't care if you take a normal number of sick days, don't require a doctor's note, regardless of whether the law allows them to. Sick days are like vacation days, it's your own business how you use them. This is fine. And if you want to make a major long-term disability claim then you'll be expected to prove it, but that seems overall pretty reasonable?

That's the common case. No major incentive for employers to cause friction with workers who are mostly acting in good faith. Then there are employers who are, let's say, less selective about their employees, will hire anyone willing to do the job, but correspondingly then see a high rate of fraud. These employers want to be able to demand evidence all the time because the sort of people they're willing to hire would be taking three months of paid vacation a year as sick days if they could get away with it.

Since the law applies to everyone, what does a law like that do? In the common case it does nothing because the employer doesn't do it regardless. In the high fraud cause it prevents something good and increases actual fraud.

So the only time it does something good is the uncommon edge case on the other side where the employer requires that even though their employees mostly weren't faking sick days. And because most employers for that type of work don't do that, those employers don't get any major benefit from it anyway and employees don't like it, the ones who do are at a competitive disadvantage, so it stays uncommon.

Which means the main effect of the law is to cause problems for the employers willing to do "second chance" hiring of people who might screw them over, which harms not only the employer but also those workers when employers stop being willing to hire them because the law requires them to take the hit if they do.

[IveSeenItAll]

> In the US most employers don't care if you take a normal number of sick days, don't require a doctor's note

In .nl (and .pl also, although I'm less familiar with actual practices there, just because we haven't had anyone sick there in the last decade or so) there is no "normal number of sick days", and a "doctor's note" is also entirely unheard of.

If you cannot work for medical reasons, you report this to your employer, which will then (in most cases) hand off things entirely to a medical consultancy working for them. Obviously, this will not be done for 4-to-8-hour absences (again, in most cases), but definitely for anything beyond that, and if an employee tries to game the system, there are safeguards for the company there as well.

The medical consultancy will establish a plan for working hours for the next month or so (depending on the severity of the condition) and submit that to the employer: they don't get any details beyond that (in fact, that would be highly illegal). Depending on the duration of employee absence, there are various levels of insurance that (may) kick in, but the main focus is to provide a (literally) workable schedule.

Oh, and if an employee gets sick while on holiday, the same scheme applies. I found that one really gets everyone nonfamiliar with "European" working culture going...