Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by ileonichwiesz 27 days ago
Very interesting topic, but a strange choice of source. I'd recommend these instead:

Coller foundation press release: https://www.jeremycollerfoundation.org/news-and-insights/pre...

The actual publication in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ads8482

3 comments

Here's a non-paywalled version of the research.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.11.14.623689v1....

Unfortunately that link is behind a proof of javascript computational paywall by cloudflare.
It does have the title going for it.
The title doesn't match the paper though. People had already decoded the bird calls. What the paper was giving evidence to was that the birds themselves are cognitively decoding the calls.
I’m glad we’re doing this research. It makes me wonder how much time and potential we’ve wasted over the years actively assuming non-human animals were just rote automatons.

It seems like a meaningful amount of science has been spent on systematically dismantling pre-existing prejudice over the last hundreds of years (and thousands in some cases and cultures).

  All humans are human.
  Babies can feel pain.
  Plants feel.
  Animals think.
Just … So much wasted time on what should have always been seen as true.

I get that some cultures already thought some of these things, but many of these were sadly not prevailing.

> It makes me wonder how much time and potential we’ve wasted over the years actively assuming non-human animals were just rote automatons.

It's pretty easy to see that most things above plankton aren't rote automatons. Anyone claiming otherwise just has an agenda to sell.

I don’t believe there’s any evidence behind plant’s feeling or thinking.

Other than that you’re right.

Yeah I think there's a lot of science news about how plants are capable of more than the average person thinks, but people tend to conflate that with some kind of conscious experience.
What the average person thinks is a very low barrier but I do not think plants have crossed that yet.
fortunately, there is a lot of evidence behind plant's feeling and thinking; enough so that if you were to expose yourself to it, and if you were willing to update your beliefs based on strong scientific evidence, I believe you'd change your view.
There's evidence for stunningly intricate, marvelously impressive biological function, but there's no evidence whatsoever for internal mental states.

What's happening is we borrow from a pre-existing vocabulary with connotations to conscious activity and we use it to describe automatic biological reflexes, and then some people lose track of whether it was an analogy or whether it was literal and start claiming plants can "feel."

11 distinct calls is something a rote automaton could easily cope with. So I don't think this study proves much of anything about birds' cognitive abilities.
Thank you, I was also looking for a better source and a link to the paper. I thought the paper was this older one https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06394-9 from 2018.