[Aboutplants]

The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness. Moderation in the sense of using or consuming something to only a certain degree.

In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple.

Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the correct choice. Want to consume alcohol? Moderate consumption. Enjoy TikTok or other video entertainment? Moderation. Work? Don’t destroy yourself, moderate extreme effort.

This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.

[mrtksn]

I don’t know about moderation but optimization is the mother of all evil. All extremists are actually optimization agents. Let one run for too long and you greatly loose on everything.

So I don’t think that we should meet a middle ground necessarily but wary of people that are trying to maxxx something.

[atoav]

Just be wary that you might not like the middle ground between a serial killer and someone wbo insists all human life is sacred.

[mrtksn]

There’s no middle ground, just that the serial killers and the people who insist that all human life is sacred are both destructive assuming that the sacred lifers take it to the extreme(i.e. try to force all resources and politics into saving all life whatever it takes).

[ffsm8]

An imo even better example is death penalty.

Some people are not redeemable. Abolishing the death penalty is a mistake.

Another even less controversial example is providing adults and elderly euthanasia under certain circumstances.

[ZordonShumway]

>Some people are not redeemable.

I agree entirely.

>Abolishing the death penalty is a mistake.

Unless we can devise a method of perfectly determining guilt, there will always be some false convictions. Personally, I’m not comfortable with executing innocent people. If that means keeping irredeemable killers alive in prison, I’m ok with that.

[marginalia_nu]

Moderation in fentanyl, too? Some habits are arguably just vices, that have few justifiable middle grounds.

[_aavaa_]

Are you seriously trying to compare “AI” in education to fentanyl?

The difference between AI robbing you of learning opportunities and acting as a tutor or sounding board is what question you ask.

[marginalia_nu]

No I'm arguing against the false fairness in moderation in anything. It's just not correct. (Though I do sense a sort of cognitive fent fold in certain heavy AI-users, so maybe I should)

[whattheheckheck]

Moderation in everything... including applying the phrase moderation in everything...

[_aavaa_]

Do you think that moderation when it comes to AI in education is not correct?

[marginalia_nu]

Not really, at least not without restructuring the educational system completely.

AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught, like adults didn't need to take a semester in AI-usage, so why should children need such a thing? Besides, it interferes with how we teach, which is done by having students write things in their own words (which is just "that which I can't explain, I don't understand", instrumentalized). It's not the essay that is the point, it's probably kinda shit, but the point is the fact that you are writing it. If AI does that work for them, then they simply don't learn. It's largely the same reason we don't let children use calculators when they're learning basic arithmetic. Calculators exist, and are useful, but they're awful in a teaching environment.

If we can use AI as an expert teacher with infinite time for each child, that does theoretically have promise (per bloom 2sigma). But it's also quite far away with what we've got right now.

[_aavaa_]

We'll put aside where AI usage is a skill that needs to be taught (which I think there is definitely room for teaching people how to use it effectively as a tool) since that isn't what the discussion is about.

The article's talking about the use of AI learning rather than learning how to use AI.

> If AI does that work for them, then they simply don't learn.

I agree, and I think the original commenter would agree too given that this doesn't sounds like moderation.

The no-ai end is "you write the whole essay yourself" the all-in end is "you give the ai and idea and have it write the essay". The moderation approach is somewhere in-between and it could very well be "you write the essay and ask the AI to proofread and coach you through it".

> It's largely the same reason we don't let children use calculators when they're learning basic arithmetic. Calculators exist, and are useful, but they're awful in a teaching environment.

Yes, having the ai act as a calculator when you need to learn and prove you can do it is a bad use of it. Having the Ai double check your work to catch errors, point out when you make the same mistake over and over, or ask it to walk you through another example are all productive uses.

[simonw]

"AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught"

At this point that's like saying Microsoft Excel isn't a skill that needs to be taught.

None of this stuff is easy to use, or obvious. If you want to get meaningful results out of it and avoid the many, many traps then there is an absolute ton you need to learn.

In the context of this conversation, the skill that needs to be learned is how to use AI to learn effectively. That gets into pedagogy and personal learning styles and self-discipline and all sorts of other extremely gnarly areas.

[csa]

> AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught

Given how much time I spend teaching people how to use AI effectively, I humbly disagree.

AI slop is not using AI effectively.

> like adults didn't need to take a semester in AI-usage

… especially adults

> so why should children need such a thing?

So that the scope of merits and demerits of the tool are explicit from the start, and this understanding can evolve along with the tool.

[nerdsniper]

Sure. Fentanyl should neither be completely banned from the nation nor easily obtained OTC by anyone. We should keep it available for things like epidurals.

Moderation in fentanyl.

[cl3misch]

Moderation in recreational drugs, which definitely rules out fentanyl?

But yeah, what's moderation and what's excessive is subjective.

[operatingthetan]

Truisms fail when you get to the edge cases. This is well known and you aren't pointing out some massive flaw in their reasoning when it comes comes to classroom AI use.

[FloorEgg]

They weren't responding directly to classroom AI use, they were responding to the parent comment making a general claim about moderation - which included moderation of using Tiktok. My immediate thought was "Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?

So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things that are highly addictive and corrosive may be a good category for exceptions. Things that are clearly bad (e.g. murder) are exceptions.

When someone says "life is as simple as x" and the someon else says "hold on its not that simple, what about this exception" that latter rebuttal is valid and constructive.

[operatingthetan]

>"Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?

This is an absurd statement. If someone is trying to talk about the middle cases, redirecting the conversation to the edge in order to dismiss their general comment is not appropriate.

'Edge cases exist' is not a lesson most people here need to hear.

[marginalia_nu]

I'm not even sure it's demonstrable that all things are good in moderation. There is a very large class of things that simply aren't good in moderation.

This leaves it generously a thought teminating cliche devoid of meaning, certainly nothing you should be making decisions off.

[operatingthetan]

All generalizations are fragile at the edge cases, that doesn't make them pointless, especially if you know they are generalizations.

[pibaker]

Fentanyl is on the WHO list of essential medicines and widely used for anesthesia in medical settings.

Perhaps try looking up the thing you are talking about before making a moral judgement based on mass media soundbites.

[marginalia_nu]

What a curiously defensive way to respond. Did I strike a nerve?

[bobsmooth]

Fentanyl is used in hospitals for pain management, so yes.

[marginalia_nu]

Moderation in recreational fentanyl then?

[bonzini]

For what it's worth, my understanding is that fentanyl is pretty bad as a recreational drug, which is why it started as a scam for people looking for heroin. It's too strong as an anesthetic and the effect lasts very little.

[AngryData]

I dunno about everyine else but if someone else wants to then yes. If they can get clean product for proper dosing then it is already safer and better for everyone involved.

[moi2388]

Yes. For example only when prescribed by your doctor. Or you could undergo the surgery without any pain killers if they are so bad?

[tonyarkles]

I mean, it worked reasonably well for my father while he was as recovering from his knee replacement. Fentanyl patches that gave a precise time-released dose.

[seemaze]

>This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.

Just moderate your moderation! It’s turtles all the way down

[chrisweekly]

I like the idea "everything in moderation -- including moderation" (implying it's healthy to occasionally go nuts)

[laybak]

same. the older I get, the more I appreciate the "middle of the world" attitude in classical Chinese teachings. there's no single approach that's always / universally right. so it's wise to avoid going to the extreme in any direction

[breezybottom]

This is called the golden mean fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...

What I've found as I get older is that when someone says "It’s really simple," that's a good sign it isn't.

[busymom0]

Something can be really simple, yet very hard. Like saving money or losing fat and building muscles.

[breezybottom]

I don't know what that means. Building muscle involves incredibly complicated biological processes, there's nothing "simple" about it. In the parent comment the "simple" advice is also fallacious.

[busymom0]

We don't need to know all the intricacies of how something happens behind the scenes. The actual task of how to do to it is very simple.

[breezybottom]

You keep redefining "simple" to make it work.