[HybridStatAnim8]

Being the administrator and being able to sidestep OS protections are not the same thing. Without root, the user is in control of what application does what and how. With root, the user is not. Root is not freedom or ownership, like many try to claim. Root is a hacky shortcut to proper functionality. You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege.

Its really funny because Tron, or at least Tron Legacy, is a great example of why godhood is dangerous and why a user and a program having root access is catastrophic.

[kuschku]

Being an administrator is being root. That's the entire point. That whatever restrictions an app has set, I can override it if I need to.

> You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege.

Building a version of the OS and flashing that removes everything currently on the device.

So if I ever need to overrule a restriction an app has set, I must have already granted myself the power to do so ahead of time.

Which means there are only two viable paths forward:

1. If I assume that software is perfect, and I will never need to overrule a restriction software sets, I can use stock Android or Graphene OS

2. If I assume that at some point in the future I might someday need to overrule any restriction, I must grant myself root permissions from the start.

Also, I don't need to grant root permissions to random apps.

All that's needed is for the adb and the native file manager to be able to enter sudo mode and read any file, so that in worst case I can always pull all data off the device, and flash a version of the OS with my changes instead.

If we want to go one step further, and want to apply the practical definition of the FSF rights of free software, you should also be able to replace any file using the builtin file manager in sudo mode.

[HybridStatAnim8]

You dont have the ability to guarantee you have overridden anything. The integrity of the OS cannot be verified and anything with root can lie to you that it was revoked. It does not put power in your hands.

Installing your own build does wipe the device when you unlock the bootloader, yes, but updating it with a locked bootloader does not. It would be a one time transfer if you have official images already installed.

Your paths forward are a false dichotomy. These are not the only 2 options. You can simply update your build with the changes you want.

The randomness of an app is irrelevant and apps need to jump through significantly less loops to obtain root access without your input. And even if they didnt do that, and you permitted root instead, the app can lie about you revoking it later in either case.

This is blind ideology over safety and real ownership. Root is a hacky shortcut for proper functionality, and is not a prerequisite to ownership in the slightest.

[kuschku]

> Your paths forward are a false dichotomy. These are not the only 2 options. You can simply update your build with the changes you want.

Okay, so once I install grapheneOS, how do I update it with my own custom build while keeping my data intact?

> You dont have the ability to guarantee you have overridden anything. The integrity of the OS cannot be verified and anything with root can lie to you that it was revoked. It does not put power in your hands.

You haven't read anything of what I've written, it's incredible.

You're continuing to use the term "root" to mean granting full power to random apps.

I'm using the term "root" in Linux terminology.

It's not advisable to run random software as root, no matter what platform you are on.

But the OS' native file explorer and shell, in this case com.android.documentsui/com.android.files and adb, should allow the user to authorize themselves as root and read/write to any file.

[HybridStatAnim8]

You would install your own build of GrapheneOS. Not the official images.

Its not advisable to run anything as root, at all. Or expose access to it in any form.

You can make userdebug builds to access a form of root that doesnt undermine the entire security model, in ADB. Afaik this lets you access apps internal directories but is not recommended for production devices.

[kuschku]

> You would install your own build of GrapheneOS. Not the official images.

Awesome, so you're advising against installing GrapheneOS for anyone that wants control over their own data.

Sorry for twisting the words slightly, but that's the essence of the issue here, isn't it?

> Its not advisable to run anything as root, at all. Or expose access to it in any form.

And then you advise for exposing access to it in pretty much the same form I asked for before.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so exhausting.

Regarding the security model: So adjust the security model.

Any access that an app can have, should also be available to the user. Importantly, they should be able to access and modify any data.

The system documents/files app already has special permissions for that, there's no reason why it shouldn't have access to all files (accessible through the same unlock system as e.g. the security settings)

[HybridStatAnim8]

No, official GrapheneOS is an ideal method to control data. As a part of this, they also provide build documentation for whatever you want to do. It is FOSS, after all.

To be clear, I am NOT advising root access. I am not contradicting myself. I am telling you it is dangerous but still telling you how it can be done in a less terrible way. To withhold that info would be senseless gatekeeping. GrapheneOS supports being built as a userdebug image but that will not stop them from telling you how bad an idea it is to use it on a production device.

GrapheneOS will not be rolling back aspects of the security model. That would be a massive step backwards for privacy and security.

[Aachen]

> It'd be funny if it wasn't so exhausting.

That's GrapheneOS users and developers every time the topic comes up. I'm reading the thread and really admire the matter-of-fact tone you keep while calling out the illogical parts of each new attempt at justifying why GrapheneOS doesn't grant users full device access. Thanks for seeing this thread through!