[cyanydeez]

I never got into any of the AI models because it was clear local first was going to be more valueable, if they were to replace coding tasks.

I tried out a few models and ended up going with either Qwen3-Coder-Next (no think, just do) and Qwen3.6-35B (thinking, w/llamacpp token budget). Created a customized prompt that works fairly well to around ~60k tokens and then is a toss up on whether it's poisoned itself or I've directly steered it into the wrong. When it's clear that's happened, if it's important to continue, ask it to write a doc then start fresh.

I don't kno whow any one cold have witnessed the last 2 decades of American VC funded tech startups and tell themselves, "you know, this will be a reliable technolgy with no hidden problems".

Even a sober technical evaluation is just two steps:

1. You're proposing to build a app on a non-deterministic model.

2. That model is hosted behind a non-deterministic system (model alignment, model guardrails, system context subterfuge, cost/token pricing)

---

So you want to build your app and you think you're going to kep up with both #1 and #2?

[c7b]

Cool! Anything you want to share? I haven't looked much into my system prompt yet, do you have any tips?

[cyanydeez]

so opencode has multiple agents for the primary, and that's all I'm doing _but_, I pair it with llamacpp for thinking mode: --reasoning-budget N token budget for thinking: -1 for unrestricted, 0 for immediate end,

N>0 for token budget (default: -1) (env: LLAMA_ARG_THINK_BUDGET)

--reasoning-budget-message MESSAGE message injected before the end-of-thinking tag when reasoning budget

Currently, opencode doesn't do this, but the budget-message could be implemented by a harness to put in custom message. So I tailored an agent with a message that has it either compress the context via dynamic compression plugin or request that it uses a subagent to avoid bloating the context.

It's mildly successful, but you can tell as context size grows it becomes more and more narrow sited or wayward.

[ACCount37]

We live in a non-deterministic world. Anything "deterministic" in it is a castle built on quicksand.

LLMs are, as far as the nastiness of the Real World goes, really fucking benign. Future models outperform past models, both in open weight land and at the big frontier labs. Performance per $ only ever goes up. That's just nice.

[windexh8er]

> We live in a non-deterministic world. Anything "deterministic" in it is a castle built on quicksand.

Except the Enterprise, and a lot of what people want compute for, is built on deterministic systems or processes. I'm not saying the non-deterministic nature of LLMs isn't useful. However I've worked with a lot of organizations on SOAR projects, for example. When you can weave the deterministic and non-deterministic together you get a relatively efficient system. A workflow that will stay on the rails and will come to a conclusion as expected. And the "as expected" part is critical in these types of systems. The reality of, using SOAR as an example, is also that most enterprise would be much better served by fast SLMs. Parse an email and validate if it's SPAM / Phishing or read a chunk of firewall logs and look for outliers / indications for escalation - those things can get messy in a deterministic system because of potentially unstructured data.

I don't believe it's either / or. And I believe that LLMs just aren't efficient, fast or reliable in the sense that deterministic are. It seems, at least to me, a better together story.

[SkyBelow]

I think it might be built on something more than deterministic systems. Some property that is a subset of deterministic, so all your argument still apply, but merely being deterministic is not good enough.

LLMs are what made me start considering this. Imagine a company using an LLM that was fully deterministic. All RNG was either removed or seeded in such a way that the same input (so many the seed counts as part of the input) gave the exact same output. Fully deterministic.

But such an LLM, with a slight drift in input, could still produce very different outputs. This isn't being non-deterministic, but more than the change in outputs does not naturally follow from the input. I'm thinking like how 2 double pendulums can (but not always do) greatly diverge given a very small change in their input.

So in light of that I've begun to call this new property non-chaotic. So Enterprise depends on non-chaotic systems, which are a subset of deterministic systems, and then wrangling the chaotic elements they cannot remove as much as possible.

The follow question I now have is if all LLMs are inherently chaotic, or if it is possible to have a non-chaotic LLM.

[cyanydeez]

YES, but you seem to not understand that having two non-deterministic layers is incompatible. #1 is fine: it has random issue and you build around those random issues; those issues don't change unless you change them.

#2 is not fine; that non-determinism you do not control, have no insight into, etc.

I'm saying sure, give me #1 if it means I can build a harness around it and smooth over the edges. But I'm not taking #1 and #2. There's zero reasonable way to manae two non-deterministic systems.

[maykthewessen]

Qwen is the Alibaba distilled Anthropic Claude model

So piracy on an by piracy trained ai model..

[cogman10]

Piracy? Lol.

Alibaba didn't steal Opus weights, they used opus output to train their model.

If this is piracy, then so is reverse engineering efforts powering a bunch of Linux drivers.

[cyanydeez]

If that's piracy, I'm going to the library and arresting everyone there!

Also, yeah, they already stole their copyrighted works, so a thief from a thief is still...theives?

[tommica]

Well, Anthropic got paid for it, unlike the sources that they used...

[c7b]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is that a good or a bad thing? Model distillation is presumably part of the reason why Qwen is so good, yes. As a consumer, that's a good thing I would say. It's a natural counterbalance to the monopolistic tendencies of other tech segments.

If you have ethical concerns, model distillation feels like an arbitrary line to draw. Why is the first type of piracy ok, the second not? You should restrict yourself to ethical open source models. Which is btw where I genuinely hope the future of local models is going to lie. Open weights is not enough, we need fully open source models to be sustainable. Even for simple things like updating the knowledge cutoff. How we are going to distribute the training effort will be an interesting problem where I don't see an obvious solution yet. Maybe the blockchain/federated learning people can suggest something. Or university consortia, or some public sector solutions. Or something really boring - I for one would absolutely be willing to pay for DRM-free weights of an open source model (even if I could pirate them for free).

[zaphirplane]

Are you saying 2 wrongs make a right

[c7b]

I'm saying, either you have a problem with the copyright issues related to AI training or you don't. If you do, neither Qwen nor Claude are acceptable, if not then both are. They have similar moral standing to me.

Btw, ethically sourced, open source LLMs exist! Check out eg Olmo by Allen AI: https://allenai.org/olmo

[tancop]

in this case yes. stealing from a thief is right if you give all of it back to the victims. with ai the "stealing" is from everyone on the internet, so the only ethical option is making the results open source and available to all. thats exactly what chinese labs are doing.

(in general i think piracy or breaking ip laws in general is not morally wrong unless you make money from it, but thats a whole other conversation.)