[devsda]

What happens if you "accidentally" become persona non grata with both Google and Apple?

If you want to participate in the society, you will forever have to resort to shady tactics. Shady can be defined something as arbitrary as using GrapheneOS.

A temporary workaround like using alternatives like GrapheneOS for those affected will only delay the inevitable but it doesn't stop it at all.

[dachris]

If you've accidentally become a persona non grata, then obviously because you've not exercised sufficient self-censorship.

This is real already. Recently saw a petition for EU to rein in big tech (there are several initiatives advocating this). Had this nagging voice at the back of my head ... what if signing that gets your Google Account terminated.

I'll leave it open to you whether I signed it.

For developers relying on any type of Google services, you'd be in for lots of pain.

[devsda]

It doesn't even have to be censorship of speech.

If you are wrongly charged a significant amount by either Google or Apple and their service is of no help, what would you do?

Most people would weigh the options, then just eat the cost than anger them with a chargeback and lose their email/phone access. That's self-censorship financially too.

What if Google reinstates their old G+ and YouTube real name policy for its accounts. We would protest but give them the proof grudgingly and it can position itself as one of the core part of online ID verification push currently going on.

[NDlurker]

I was in that situation a few years ago. I started a hemp related business in 2019 and Ad Sense didn't like my ads and gave me an error message saying I couldn't run my ads because of certain keywords being banned. I forgot about it until a couple of years later when I saw a $300 charge on my credit card bill. Google changed their policy as CBD/hemp had become more mainstream and started running my ads. By this time my business had already failed so I did not want those ads running. I couldn't figure out how to contact a human, so I ended up just paying because I didn't want to risk getting my account closed.

[drnick1]

> What if Google reinstates their old G+ and YouTube real name policy for its accounts.

G+ was a failure; people refused to provide real names. Even Facebook's "real name policy" wasn't (and still isn't AFAIK) enforced at all. At one point, I had multiple phantom Google and Facebook accounts. Now I just self-host and eschew social media.

[sixtyj]

Google had Don’t be evil motto just between 2000 and 2018. Other companies don’t even try to pretend it. You are owned by them.

„Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.“ - Lord Acton, 1887

[artisinal]

Like how Tony Chocolonely dropped their 100% slave free claim after finding out just how difficult that is to achieve.

Nowadays they are using the slogan “Crazy about chocolates, serious about people”

[john_strinlai]

>Google had Don’t be evil motto just between 2000 and 2018.

this is popping up a lot today for some reason. "don't be evil" is still in the code of conduct, as it always has been. it just isn't in the preface anymore after the restructuring under alphabet.

https://abc.xyz/investor/board-and-governance/google-code-of...

(its not like it stopped them, anyways)

[teddyh]

This has been true for many years: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26876681>

[pimeys]

It's a great question to send to the DMA authorities: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en

More of us ask this question, the better we are heard. Except if this is exactly what they want, then we need to vote better.

[Imustaskforhelp]

Over the long term, we definitely need something like Linux phones. I find it bizzarre by how little companies support this mission of Linux phones.

[birdsongs]

It's not Linux phones that we need. We already have alternatives, like graphene and other AOSP forks.

We need corporations and governments to stop locking down and gatekeeping vital software to closed ecosystems.

A Linux phone doesn't help me when my government's 2FA system (BankID) only runs on Android and IOS phones and can only be acquired with an app store account.

[Avicebron]

> We need corporations and governments to stop locking down and gatekeeping vital software to closed ecosystems.

If you can't get the government to do this for you in Norway the US has very little hope currently.

We need some standard of minimal digital accessibility. Too much of our lives mediated by digital interactions with capricious systems.

[hparadiz]

The irony is none of this is a problem in the US. We still have a ton of banks that you can use without a smartphone. Even my bank's app works fine on a rooted Android or GrapheneOS.

Europeans are doing this to themselves.

[ryukafalz]

I just recently, in the US, got bounced through a bank authentication system (Wells Fargo's) when trying to order something from Amazon that required me to use their mobile app. I don't use an Android or iOS phone; as best I can tell there is no way to successfully complete that authentication. I even have a hardware TOTP token from the bank now, but even that they won't accept.

Now, my card info did in fact get compromised recently, and that's probably why I ended up needing that stronger auth flow. But the fact that I literally can't complete that stronger bank authentication without Google or Apple is... yeah. No.

I have since signed up for a different credit card that I plan to use from here on out.

[birdsongs]

> Europeans are doing this to themselves.

I mean, tbf the situation was fine until the US transitioned to an autocracy, and the companies went full surveillance state evil, completely supporting the autocracy. Which is a relatively recent development.

But sure.

Most places here are working as fast as possible to decouple from any reliance on the US, and I would expect Norway to switch to the new EU digital ID system currently in development.

[hparadiz]

> US transitioned to an autocracy

this is too funny coming from a continent constantly at war with itself

[eMPee584]

which as of now seems to depend on google/apple services being in control of your device and thus gets us half a tiny step closer to freedom at most..

[vintermann]

Competing to be best in class at US loyalty, more like it.

[vintermann]

You say that as if Norway is somehow super civilized and enlightened when it comes to these things, that's not the case. Norway is best in class when it comes to compliance.

The new base agreement with the US, for instance, for practical purposes declares several areas in Norway to be US territory. It's rampantly against the Norwegian constitution of course, but that doesn't matter because the parliament seems to have agreed to just unanimously consent and not talk about it further.

Sea bed mining was a farce. Everyone said it was a terrible idea, including Equinor itself. Approved anyway. My assumption is that someone from US/NATO whispered "strategic minerals" into some party leader ears, and they suddenly decided to fast-track it without further discussion.

It would surprise me a lot if there weren't similar fast-tracked, no discussion, "it has been decided" deals about digital sovereignty. Norwegian politicians may not like the guy currently in charge over the Atlantic, but they view him as a temporary aberration and an occasion to prove their loyalty (to the crown, rather than the guy currently wearing it).

[type0]

Speaking from experience, it's not only ID systems but if you run non-Android (some AOSP) they might still require you to install an App only available with Play Services or on iOS to do business with government agencies or even apply for funds in some European states. In other words if you are using GrapheneOS, from gov. agencies point of view you might as well be a criminal. Actually given how frequent ID-theft is nowadays, it's actually easier for criminals to launder their money than privacy preserving individuals or companies to pay taxes in EEA.

[troyvit]

I'm not familiar with that system. Here in the US I can go to the bank and do anything I need personally with an ID. Is that not doable where you are?

[Telaneo]

My bank doesn't have any physical locations. Those that do have worse rates, and I've had bad experiences with several of them anyway.

[someplaceguy]

One of the most popular banks in Brazil doesn't have physical branches. It doesn't even have a functional website. App only.

[echoangle]

I don’t want to be too pedantic but Android uses the Linux kernel. Degoogled Android is basically what you want.

[eMPee584]

no, because screw all that java crap, they optimized for control and developer quantity, not for ux, customizability, performance...

[microtonal]

Why do you need a Linux phone (as if Android is not a Linux phone), when there is also AOSP. If Google closes it up, it can be forked, but I don't see any fundamental benefit of throwing away decades of development done on AOSP.

[Grimblewald]

At least we dont have a social credit system... hey wait a minute

[jerieljan]

It's terrifying, yeah.

To some degree, the closest we have to these situations besides getting flagged with TOS violations (whether real or false-flagged) in these companies are residents of countries that are either trade or economically sanctioned by the USA.

Thankfully we haven't seen something like an account ban and deletion incident for such cases, but the severe ones I can remember usually prohibit access entirely and that'd be scary if it extended to primary services that others rely on for auth.

You will be effectively locked out to services if it's all that's linked and that identity provider just decided you'd be persona non grata.

[artisinal]

iOS can be used without an account. iPhones can be acquired outside of Apple. The EU has the alternative App Store option that doesn’t require an Apple account.

[birdsongs]

But I can't use my Norwegian BankID unless I have an apple store or play store account. This is required for every aspect of society. Heathcare, banking, taxes, driving, using my debit card online.

They removed SMS 2FA options recently, the only non-tech monopoly method is a 2fa codebrick that's getting harder and harder to acquire (there are new ridiculous facial ID and passport scanning requirements, run by a private corporation, in order to get one).

It's garbage and getting worse. And it seems no one cares our entire lives exist at the whim of two US tech monoliths.

[anonzzzies]

We need all countries and the EU govs to mandate companies to provide the same vital access via a Web page that works on the 4 major browsers (not an issue anymore) as via the app. All my banks have it; I need an otp device but thats fine; it works well. I wish EU would mandate that plus an EU made hardware device on which all seeds can be stored and otps generated. That can be the size of an USB stick you can put on your keyring. Add NFC/qr so you don't have to type the otp and there we go.

[graemep]

Most places are going the other way. The UK uses ID verification for company directors that gave me an alternative between driving half an hour each way (plus parking and queueing) or using a mobile app. There is a web version but apparently they do not have the data to let me use it. The EU is pushing an age verification app that will only work on Apple or Google phones.

There is a huge push towards cashless payments that has the same effect, especially as people increasingly use mobile payments.

[anonzzzies]

Yep, it's pretty bad.

[BetterThanSober]

That's on your bank and not necessarily because of Apple/Google duopoly. I think it is crazy to put the whole banking system on foreign, private company though

[Telaneo]

It's not on their bank so much as the entire banking system in Norway and the rest of society tagging along for the ride.

BankID is used for login with every single Norwegian bank and government institution. There are alternatives, but they're invonvenient and sometimes bespoke per service.

[elondaits]

The App Store account doesn’t need to be the same as the Apple iCloud account. You can create an account without a credit card associated to it.

[duskdozer]

That's much worse than I expected. Is it a hard play store requirement or can you install the apk? Are there really no other workarounds?

[birdsongs]

It truly is. We are a completely digital society and everything is authenticated with BankID. The name is a misnomer, it's not just banking but every single government service (including healthcare).

I might be wrong but as far as I'm aware there's no legitimate APK downloads. And even if you get a hold of it, they use google services to attest the phone is secure, so there's no running it on a google-less OS.

The workaround used to be SMS codes, scratch off cards, and a physical 2FA codebrick. They cancelled SMS and the card, and currently you can't acquire a codebrick until they figure out some new bullshit about ID verification. Even the app is warning us it will quit functioning if we don't submit a passport and biometric face scan to some private company: https://bankid.no/en/help/confirm-identity

It's fucking dire.

[artisinal]

What Norway has sounds pretty crazy to me. If I am reading this correctly, Trump can disable the entire Norwegian healthcare system by calling Apple and Google and having them block BankID.

[birdsongs]

Yes, he can. Along with taxes, car registrations, banking, money transfers, rent payments, etc.

I really hope we figure something out.

[ninalanyon]

I wish he would. Then the authorities would have to fix the problem.

[graemep]

Trump can close down a lot of the British NHS by telling AWS to stop supplying it. Everyone apart from a few countries (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc.) is dependent on the US.

[spacebanana7]

Yes but that’s a blunt instrument, which would risk reaction. However putting an individual on a sanctions list is routine and easy.

And a president could always just call up the CEOs and ask for their least favourite Norwegian to be cancelled without any paperwork.

[graemep]

As happened to ICC judges and prosecutors.

[tempodox]

> The EU has the alternative App Store option that doesn’t require an Apple account.

I cannot install any iOS software without being logged into my Apple account, not even an alternative app store.

It would be perfect on my older iDevices, but they don't let me log in anymore “because the OS is too old”. And guess what: I cannot update the OS without being logged in. I never logged out of those iDevices, Apple did that from their end.

[artisinal]

I tried to install onside.io through Safari and it doesn’t seem to use my Apple credentials.

Have you tried updating your older iOS devices through a Mac?

[givinguflac]

You can update the OS using a Mac or PC.

[qilo]

You can't install anything without an Apple account. Just tried installing altstore.io to repeat my previous unsuccessful attempt.

Only users based in Brazil, Japan, or the European Union are able to install apps through alternative app distribution. The country or region of your *Apple Account* must be set to one of those countries or regions, and you must physically be located there. [0]

UPDATE: Also tried to install onside.io. No luck. The same popup:

Cannot Install App: You are not eligible to install apps from "onside.io".

[0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/117767 https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110

[pfortuny]

Wow, I did not know this and -despite its drawbacks, like not being able to install apps from the Apple App store- this seems like a great way to have a powerful dumb-phone.

[malfist]

Why do you need a powerful dumb phone?

[broken-kebab]

One can read it aloud in sarcastic tone, and it will become clear then.

[llm_nerd]

> What happens if you "accidentally" become persona non grata with both Google and Apple?

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2026/feb/18/international-cr...

The US made a Canadian judge a persona non grata for any firm domiciled in the US. All because she works for the ICC, and the ICC declared Netanyahu a war criminal (which is indisputible). Why is the US destroying worldwide trust in US businesses on behalf of a reviled nuclear armed hermit nation on the other side of the planet? Good question, but it is what it is.

This example that the US will spuriously use sanctions like this is why many nations are investigating ways to purge American financial systems and tech.

[imglorp]

That judge may be an outlier today, but we all know tomorrow they could sweep through all accounts and ban everyone that spoke against the regime. We have arrived.

[Limit5332]

GrapheneOS is not shady at all, since when is wanting to use an actually secure OS that doesn't sell your data to palantir or some other ACTUALLY shady shit like that shady?

[empyrrhicist]

That was their point.

[exe34]

"If you had learned to wash lettuce, you wouldn't have had to pay court to Dionysius" - Diogenes.

[shevy-java]

You are right - now greedy corporations decide who is an "acceptable" human and who is perma-banned.

Governments need to wake up to this insane level of Evil. And other governments also need the US government responsible here, since they allow this to happen.

In objective terms this can be called a fascist system.

> A temporary workaround like using alternatives like GrapheneOS

The issue still is that so many services and functionalities are tied into private companies. States simply need to wake up now.

[DrewADesign]

> Governments need to wake up to this insane level of Evil.

I’m not even being cynical — it would probably just increase the amount of government contract cash awarded to them. Control makes governing a lot easier, control is what tech companies have, and to varying degrees, it’s for sale.

[nanis]

> Governments need to wake up to this insane level of Evil

Governments are made up of people. People who have at best median level understanding of the things they are ruling about but great self-interest in following the biggest purse to which they can attach themselves.

[broken-kebab]

As proven by history, it's convenient to have a big well-known external entity to blame as a source of any trouble, but in reality it's orders of magnitude easier to be a digital dissident in the US compared to the EU. And European Commission + European national governments are exactly the ones you should blame first. They are openly proud of how it works, they call it successful digitalization for a positive spin.

[kmeisthax]

As an extra anecdote: one of the things Cory Doctorow has been bringing up as a counterweight to US tech hegemony has been repealing anticircumvention laws that the US insisted upon as a condition of tariff-free market access that has now been rescinded. This is a good idea, but at the same time, the EC is never going to do it. We're already seeing with Stop Killing Games how even tangentially related consumer protection issues can and will be shot down with an insistence that IP is sacred and untouchable.

The reason for this is really simple: every pirate wants to be an admiral, and every client state wants to be an empire. We as tech consumers hear "sovereign cloud" and think "cutting out undue influence that US tech companies have in the EU". The EC hears "building our own tech monopolies to lock in other countries into our stack". Using SKG as an example again, the whole reason why SKG started was because of a French company, Ubisoft, killing one of their games. Why would the EC ever overrule their own industrial interests?

The EC was specifically and expressly built to be an antidemocratic bulwark against popular sovereignty. The entire concept of dividing people up by nation-states is already an antidemocratic exercise - e.g. France has 69,000,000 residents and Malta has 520,000, but both get one seat at the EC. And because the EC is made up of nation-state appointees and not elected representatives, they have all the incentive in the world to stab their own people in the back. The EC is the designated villain that the """liberal""" side of Europe's government uses to shut down democratic control (and, sometimes, even liberalism itself).

Some have pointed out that this is deliberate (and, supposedly, therefore good): that Malta would never have joined the EU if they didn't have veto powers over whatever France wanted to do. My counterargument is that veto powers are the last resort of the rich and powerful. You can either have strong protections[0] on national identity, or you can have democracy, but not both.

[0] To be clear, the way we deal with democracy being a tyranny of the majority is with liberalism: we explicitly declare certain things to be "human rights" and thus more or less off limits to the democratic process. This list is generally fixed (or at least, difficult to change) and thus less ripe for abuse than, say, having an entire wing of the government dedicated solely to overruling the people that is active all the time.