[thisisit]

> Also, the manufacturers can never be held responsible, because they have legal immunity for the COVID vaccines.

There is remedy against vaccine harm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compen...

This was passed in response to claims against DPT vaccine and manufacturers stopping production of the said vaccine. Lawmakers feared loss of herd immunity and passed the law. Now vaccine skeptics say this is not enough and claim inability to sue the company directly as an issue - but what they really want is enforce their minority view on the majority by suing companies and ensuring no one has access to vaccines - tyranny of the minority.

[LMYahooTFY]

Perhaps "vaccine skeptics" say this because the Covid vaccines are not covered under VICP. They're covered under CICP, which is more stringent and has paid out one person $6 million, and a few hundred grand spread out between some dozen others.

My friend who was diagnosed, by multiple doctors in two hospitals with Myocarditis caused by the vaccine has yet to receive any money. It ruined his career.

"Tyranny of the minority" doesn't remotely apply here. No one has the authority to sacrifice one group of citizens to save another group of citizens.

[thisisit]

> They're covered under CICP, which is more stringent and has paid out one person $6 million, and a few hundred grand spread out between some dozen others.

This is trying to play both sides. Appeal to emotion without having a rational thought process. Something bad happening is unfortunate and life changing. Then turning around and saying hundred grand isn’t life changing money for people.

What exactly is your remedy here - should people be not asked to provide proof for the harm and paid 10s of millions for every case? People have been asked proof for lesser things and paid even lesser for much bigger harm.

> My friend who was diagnosed, by multiple doctors in two hospitals with Myocarditis caused by the vaccine has yet to receive any money. It ruined his career.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence of systematic wrongdoing. At least I wouldn’t expect to see on HN but here we are.

[BoingBoomTschak]

>Anecdotal evidence is not evidence of systematic wrongdoing.

The Norwegian country-wide study is evidence enough.

[croon]

The Norwegian study landed on 4.5 cases per 100k from vaccinations [0].

Unvaccinated occurance was 200 per 100k [1].

[0] https://www.oslo-universitetssykehus.no/en/departments/hjert...

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38262150/

[tuesdaynight]

It's so sad to see that you are the first one with any kind of source in your comment. The rest are only saying scary stuff and you are supposed to argue with that. They are saying stuff like "my friend died because of the jab" and you come with studies links, which can sound unfriendly. And we are on HN, for fuck's sake.

[trimethylpurine]

The articles are fantastic, it's the unscientific claim that the data implies safety that's at issue. You can't post research about the fact that people misinterpret research right? But it's factually true. Most of the people on HN are not trained in doing or reviewing research. And not just on HN. Everyone can purchase an ad that claims to be the arbiter. Everyone can say they represent the consensus.

But the people with more money can buy more ads just like Google can stomp out any competitor, because they control the data channel.

It's a logical problem. Should we start requiring a license to hold an opinion about research? Who would we trust to govern that licensing process?

It's not really so simple as finding a source to back your claim. You need to be able to defend your interpretation of that source.

Bottom line "safety" is subjective. That's the critical argument. Compared to what is it safe?

Vaccine with a guarantee of infection, maybe the vaccine is safer.

Vaccinating everyone? Well, we didn't really study that. How do you study people in larger numbers with a guarantee that they don't get infected?

They didn't. They just assume everyone is infected and that number makes the research look valid and safe.

In fact, it's not.

The average person is more likely to have negative outcomes from vaccine than natural infection combined with non-infection.

So is it safe for someone who won't be infected at all? What about for someone that won't exhibit symptoms?

No. It's far less safe for those people.

300x-30,000x less safe. Depends on your estimation of asymptomatic and uninfected subjects in the real world.

It's more safe for someone in their 70s, with cancer, or whatever. Fine. But say that clearly. Don't try to bury that in summaries that obfuscate what you really studied.

Doing so destroys trust in science.

Not advocating for or against this vaccine platform, though. I'm advocating for laws about what meets and doesn't meet scientific rigor, as are most scientists right now.

[trimethylpurine]

In [1] "those who are not vaccinated" is a tiny subset of society that is actually composed of those who are infected, and also symptomatic, and also not vaccinated.

A large portion of society can't be counted because they are asymptomatic. How do you find them to count them? In fact that's nearly everyone. And for those people the vaccine increases their risk by 4/100,000. (More harm than good.)

Let me know if I've misunderstood.

[croon]

If we accept your (extremely unrealistic) premise, then sure, but the numbers get worse at just a 5% chance of contracting the virus itself, and downhill from there.

[tuesdaynight]

Why increase? Are you saying that asymptomatic people don't have myocarditis risk?

[rho138]

Link?

[fragmede]

> The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

-Spock, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

[trimethylpurine]

The CARES act grants immunity for the set of vaccines associated with COVID.