[csallen]

You're on Hacker News. This is a site full of developers who are convinced that "proper software engineering" is 100% of what makes a business successful, and everything and everyone else is useless. You can't just waltz in here and point out that code in business is a means to an end and expect not to get downvoted.

[Schiendelman]

As a technical product manager, this 1000%. It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business.

[AdieuToLogic]

> As a technical product manager, this 1000%. It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business.

If you are, in fact, "a technical product manager", I would hope you understand that "bad code" is identified as such specifically because it "impacts the business."

[Schiendelman]

That is not how most engineers define bad code.

[AdieuToLogic]

> That is not how most engineers define bad code.

The engineers I have worked with most definitely define "bad code" as having intrinsic limitations and/or latent defects which impact successful system functionality/operation. Indicators provided to stakeholders such as yourself which support this assessment are, but not limited to:

  - the system doesn't work that way
  - the system lacks test coverage, so changes take longer
  - adding feature "X" is not feasible
  - there is no repeatable way to onboard team members
  - the backlog grows exponentially
  - that "one point task" is going to take a couple weeks

All of the above impacts a business.

It is up to you, the "technical product manager", to understand what your team is trying to tell you.

[Schiendelman]

Please stop being rude to me. I'm a human being, I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer (you can google my name, I'm the only one), and the way you are behaving sucks.

Everything you're saying is true, sometimes. Assume I'm still right, and that you might be able to learn something from someone else.

[AdieuToLogic]

> Please stop being rude to me.

I do not see how I was being rude, unless it was my use of quotations around the title you claim.

> I'm a human being ...

I did not doubt this.

> ... I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer ...

Again, if it was my use of quotations which you found to be rude, then I do not know what to say about that.

> ... and the way you are behaving sucks.

I respect your perspective and support your right to express yourself. And no, I do not think you are being rude by doing so.

> Assume I'm still right ...

Why would I? You responded to:

>> This is a site full of developers who are convinced that "proper software engineering" is 100% of what makes a business successful, and everything and everyone else is useless.

With:

> As a technical product manager, this 1000%.

Finally, you write:

> ... you might be able to learn something from someone else.

Maybe you can learn something from someone else as well.

[slopinthebag]

They weren’t rude enough. Your complete apathy towards the many antisocial effects of badly engineered software, caring only about increasing shareholder value, is the reason why modern software not only sucks but actively makes our lives worse to use it.

[dgellow]

Googling your name brings this missing person case as the only results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Logan_Schiend...

[hack1312]

There was nothing rude about any of their replies.

[nomel]

This is something I wish I understood sooner. There is strong merit to "good enough".

Of all the "concise" and "beautiful" code I worked hard to produce, I was the only one to ever lay eyes on it. It didn't actually matter, and nobody cared but me. The people in charge of my raises could never perceive quality of code, because it wasn't their area of expertise. They only cared (rightly so) that it did what it was supposed to, and all the elegant abstractions didn't practically help that purpose. It was, literally, wasted life that I should have spent just getting off work early, like most of my colleagues.

[Schiendelman]

Thank you! You also might appreciate this, which hit HN today: https://anatoliybabushka.com/blog/when-to-rewrite-working-co...

[echelon]

Every bit of code written in the last 50 years is going to be meaningless.

People need to get to grips with that fast.

Distribution, relationships, processes, mindshare, marketing, and politics matter. Code is just ephemeral glue and implementation detail.

[ses1984]

Not every bit of code is going to be meaningless.

Just 99.999%.

[slopinthebag]

Lmao. Have more respect for your elders, who wrote all the code that your ai psychosis is fuelled by.

[echelon]

Every single thing around you was pioneered by people who are dead and forgotten. From the materials science of the clothes you wear, to the very language you speak.

Get over yourself. We're all ephemeral, dead and recycled in the blink of an eye. Our species doesn't even clock on the geologic timespan.

If you think your code (or any of your artifacts or possessions) matter beyond their immediate utility, you're mistaken. Work will either fall into disuse or be replaced. It's scaffolding for what comes next along a well-traversed path.

[slopinthebag]

I refuse to accept your existential nihilism. This mindset is not only toxic to the soul, but toxic to those who must suffer the effects of someone who only cares about “immediate utility”. What a depressing comment.

[satvikpendem]

Look upon my works, the mighty, and despair!

[hexasquid]

Dr Manhattan

[satvikpendem]

It's ironic because around 20 years ago here, people knew HN was (more) explicitly for startup founders and the comments reflected that, with much more discussion on getting customers than writing code.