[Mezzie]

I think one issue with thinking this way is that who is stronger and who is weaker isn't always so easy to suss out, particularly on the margins.

To give an example from my own life/experience, I'm an American and Canadian woman, but I'm also a disabled lesbian. I feel uncomfortable when I go places (e.g. Ikea) and see Muslim families where the men are dressed in Western clothing and the women are niqabis, because it's an outward signal to me that they follow an interpretation of religion that is sexist and homophobic and are likely to be hostile to my existing.

There can be power overlap between the weakest members of the stronger community and the strongest members of the weaker community.

For the record, I don't have those feelings around all people of Middle Eastern descent or people who are visibly Muslim but not displaying an adherence to a particularly conservative interpretation of their religion (e.g. a hijabi in Western clothes or a group where some of the women are hijabis/niqabis and others aren't). I do have those feelings around white people who similarly display such conservative religious leanings (Amish, Haridem, etc.). It's purely ideological, not ethnic or racial.

The thing is, as a native, I don't have a choice to be here, whereas immigrants do. So why am I assumed to be the 'stronger' one, and why should ethnicity and religion override any other power dynamic?

[em-bee]

I feel uncomfortable when I [...] see Muslim families where the men are dressed in Western clothing and the women are niqabis, because it's an outward signal to me that they follow an interpretation of religion that is sexist and homophobic

but that is very subjective and projects a fear that in my opinion has no basis in reality. i have felt the discomfort myself, even as a man, and i have asked myself where does this discomfort come from. my conclusion is a bit difference than yours.

first of all it helps to look into the history of this culture. as you notice that this is not specific to muslims, but is in fact historic to our own culture as well, what the amish are doing today was the norm in the western world just a few centuries ago. we all did it, and therefore it is not an immigrant problem.

the headscarf in particular was commonly worn by women even less than a century ago. there is nothing sexist or homophobic about it. it's culture. correlation is not causation. i'd argue that most women in the western who still wear these do it by choice, not because they are forced by their husband. for many it's a fashion statement. an outward representation of their personal belief (as an islamic or amish woman).

if you look closer you will also find that many muslim women in the west do not cover their hair, but normally you can't see them because without the headcover you would not even know they are muslim.

it is also worth considering that in part the intention of covering up was for the protection of women. the scary part for me is who they needed protection from. but our western society is plenty misogynistic still, we have just become better at hiding it.

and are likely to be hostile to my existing.

this i find completely baffling. why would they be hostile to you? i believe if you talk to these women and get to know them and learn their motivations that will help you get a better perspective, and alleviate your fears.

The thing is, as a native, I don't have a choice to be here, whereas immigrants do

which choice are you referring to here? the choice to not cover their head? the choice to go against their own beliefs? the choice to disagree with their husband/family? those that have the choice and and to do it, are doing it. those that don't either don't have the choice or choose not to. it's up to us to get to know them to understand the difference.

why am I assumed to be the 'stronger' one?

stronger in numbers. we are the majority still.

why should ethnicity and religion override any other power dynamic?

which other power dynamic? religion still is the strongest power dynamic in every society. even in the west. atheism is effectively a religion too. it's just another belief. trying to suppress religious expression means to remove religious freedom. do we really want that? what if it is your beliefs that are being suppressed? you would not want that. we have to allow for others to follow their beliefs even if they contradict ours. but we have to learn to get along because rejecting people for their beliefs only pushes them into extremism.

[peterfirefly]

> stronger in numbers. we are the majority still.

That won't last long among the young in Sweden, actually. Not if the current immigration policies continue, that is.

[Mezzie]

I gave the example I gave specifically: I'm well aware of the history of the head scarf, and the difference between a hijab and a niqab (as well as between the different forms of dress - I know the difference between an abaya, a chador, etc.) I also specified it is specifically when I run across families/groups where the women and men are dressed very differently: I don't feel that way when I encounter groups where men are in thobes and women are in abayas + hijab or niqab. I don't feel this way when there are outward signals that the woman is wearing the hijab primarily for cultural reasons, such as when she's keeping company with women who don't cover or when it's blended with an acceptance of Western culture.

I really dislike the idea that my discomfort has to come from ignorance. It doesn't. I've actually spent time in the Middle East (and yes, I wore a hijab). I am aware that the idea that the niqab is compulsory is not held by the majority of Muslims and it's a particularly conservative reading to consider it compulsory. I'm also aware that some women choose to be niqabi, which is why if it's one or two in a group it doesn't bother me - that's indicative of it being a choice, and if the niqabi is accompanied by hijabis or uncovered women it signals that she accepts variance in interpretation. When it's every single one, though, that tells me that it's likely that group of people has conservative Muslim views.

In terms of listening to people, I've also listened to ex-Muslims and queer people from Muslim backgrounds. I've found a lot of 'sit down and listen to X group' presents you with the most privileged takes from that group: You want me to listen to the Western revert, not the women from Afghanistan.

And again, I do feel uncomfortable with white people/people of my own ethnicity who outwardly display signs of belonging to fundamentalist/conservative religious groups. I don't like fundamentalist Christians, super Orthodox Jews, etc. I'm judging them by the same standards I judge anyone else. If anything, giving them a pass feels rather like the racial version of benevolent sexism.

I was referring to the choice on where to live. Unless they're refugees, immigrants make a choice about living in their new country and they have the option to leave/go back to a place where the culture agrees with them. I can't leave.

> religion still is the strongest power dynamic in every society.

Strongly disagree. I'd put class and sex up there alongside religion, personally. Those are strong power dynamics that exist even in societies where everyone is of the same religion/ethnic group.

I don't say anything to any of these people and I do live with the discomfort, but my point is to say that in this situation someone is going to be uncomfortable. It's either going to be me, knowing that they think I shouldn't exist, or them, feeling like they can't express themselves. There is also another lens for looking at this, which is freedom of speech. They have the right to express their beliefs (non-verbally) that I'm a degenerate who's going to burn in hell, and I have the right to express my belief that their beliefs are extremely off-putting and I'd rather not be around them.

[em-bee]

my apologies for assuming ignorance. stating your actual experience does make a big difference (and just a hint that you have been in the middle east for some time would have made that obvious). it does change my understanding. you also add a lot of context now that i find very helpful, thank you for that.

no time now to respond in detail. i'll come back to that. but it appears you have a great deal of experience to share, so i'd like to ask up front to please share more.

just one thought that may indicate where my response might be going. being uncomfortable with other some people is something that makes me question my own feelings and beliefs first of all. why do those people make me uncomfortable, and what can i do about it? but to understand your discomfort i would really like to learn more about your experience.

another aspect of this discussion is the question of where the future of our society is going and how we best deal with conservative elements that reject change. anyways, i'll probably need a day or so for a more thoughtful response.

[Mezzie]

I do think context is important and I appreciate this response acknowledging it.

Other context: I live in Michigan, and there are actually Muslim majority towns and cities here - I don't live in one, but I do travel to/through those areas and where I live does have a Muslim population and there's nothing unusual to me about seeing a hijabi/visibly Muslim people out and about, so I'm coming from the point of view of those populations establishing places where they are the majority. And they've also used the power they've accrued on the local level to display hostility towards queer people. It's not a theoretical I'm making up in my head to enrage myself.

Specifically, I spent time in Jordan, which is a country that has a wide variety of people and people practicing Islam in different ways, so I'm definitely not under the illusion that all Muslims are the same or are extremists.

I definitely agree that we should question how and why something or someone makes us uncomfortable, and I agree that the first step should be interrogating our feelings and determining if they have a basis or if they're just knee-jerk displeasure towards change or something different. I have actually sat with these feelings for a while specifically because they're so taboo in left leaning spaces, and all I have heard is similar to what you say: That I'm bigoted, don't understand, etc. That's one reason I actually did go out of my way to learn and understand more: I wanted to interpret that criticism in good faith, and I agreed that I should know more before judging.

I have major theological and moral objections to central parts of all 3 of the Abrahamic faiths, even outside of the 'do you believe in God?' question.

Another piece of context is that I'm a 38 year old lesbian woman and I grew up in an environment where conservative religious movements were actively and openly hostile to me. I remember reading articles when I was 6 years old about how damaged and sinful I was, I remember the reactions to Matthew Shepard, etc. If anything, I've grown more comfortable with religious expression over time: when I was younger, I viewed any open display of religious faith as signaling that person was dangerous to me. I've also spent most of my life hating that I'm a lesbian and wanting, desperately, to be at least bisexual so I could be normal. I still struggle with this.

The question of larger society is one reason why I feel uneasy about the situation: I think the most likely path towards assimilation/acceptance for the Muslim community is doubling down on the conservatism and becoming allies with the Christian right. The fact that the Muslim community is full of people who think that my life should involve me being married to a man and unable to say no to sex/being raped repeatedly fills me with horror and makes it very hard to want more of them in my area. That's why I'm pro-assimilation: it's self-preservation.

If Muslims want to live in America and wear hijab, pray five times a day, observe Ramadan, etc. I don't care, but I draw the line at ideologies that perpetuate sexism and homophobia. (And again, I don't want fundie Christian immigrants or fundie Jewish immigrants either, and a white conservative Muslim family isn't any more acceptable to me.)

To me, when I see families/groups that are openly displaying conservative Muslim values, they are openly saying they don't want me in their society and if they had a choice, they'd get rid of me. Why wouldn't that make me uncomfortable? If you went out and about and saw people wearing 'castrate all men' shirts or a symbol that represented 'all men can be made to like cock if you ram it up their ass while they scream until you break them down', you would be comfortable with that? With those people existing in your city?

If you want me to live a life where I'm sexually assaulted regularly to please your God, I'm entitled to view that as a threat. If you openly express affiliation with that, I'm entitled to consider you hostile to me and not want to 'get to know you'.

[em-bee]

thank you. as far as i can see you did everything right and your feelings are consistent and justified. they come from experience and not lack of knowledge. i don't believe there is much i could add or respond to. anything i would say would be more likely to highlight my own lack of knowledge instead.

i would like to continue this discussion, but some things i would like to share are to personal to be posted here in public. though if you are interested, my email is in my profile. i don't need to know your identity so if you find an anonymous way to email me that would work just as well.

that out of the way here are some thoughts i can add: i am firmly on the side of integration and creating a diverse community. allowing a minority to isolate themselves by becoming a majority in their area/town is neither integration nor diversity.

on your reaction to criticism, all i can say is well done. the struggle here is that it is difficult to share all that within the limitations of text messaging among people who don't know each other, and i guess my excuse for having had any doubts is that i believe that to many people make the same arguments without having made an effort to question them unlike what you did.

i am curious about your objections against religions, but not to counter them but rather to find out how they relate to the objections i have myself. (maybe that too is something better discussed in private. discussions on religion don't tend to go well on HN)

when it comes to being comfortable with religious expression of others the trajectory matters. yours is going in the right direction. you made an effort to learn more and you did become more comfortable. i could not ask for more than that, so there is nothing for me to add.

i am sorry you have to struggle with your sexuality. that's something i wish noone should go through. i don't know if i can relate, all i can say is that i am uncomfortable as a man to be associated with the typical concept of masculinity. in a world where generalizations are common i find it difficult to differentiate myself from the typical/normal (or what is generally considered normal/average) male. unlike the ability to dissociate from a religion if you disagree with it and no longer believe, i can't dissociate from being male no matter how much i reject the idea of masculinity.

anyone who believes that sexual assault in marriage is ok has failed to understand their own religion. this is why i struggle with the idea that the public expression of affiliation should be considered hostile. i now understand why you feel like that, and with your experience i believe that your feelings are justified, but for me people who believe that assault is right or have other equally extremist ideas in my eyes are not muslims or christians or whichever other religion they claim to follow but have actually strayed from god because neither the bible nor the koran or other religions that i know of allow that. and anyone who is citing quotes in defense or as criticism is not arguing in good faith. but i am saying that as an outsider, not being muslim or christian myself.

i think i said enough controversial things now so again, any more i'd rather share in private.