[flir]

> Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.

Translation: the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the drawbacks.

This is the crux of it. From your local parish council to the largest supranational organisation, nobody's going to be in favour of every decision made. They're still better than the alternative.

[spwa4]

> Translation: the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the drawbacks.

Well, yes. But that WAS NOT what was voted upon. What was voted upon were specific proposals to change the EU and have closer integration.

The votes (there was more than one) had clear outcomes: "NO".

But in a democratic system that should be then of it! And it wasn't. But the truth is the EU has a very long history of overriding democratic votes, "for good reasons". Frankly, I even agree with the basic assessment there: that what the EU proposed was the best outcome and voters rejected it for bad reasons. But in a democracy that voters reject it is the final say.

And the problem with it is that if "rational" things can be forced through against the will of the voters ... it always ends the same way.

[flir]

Ireland rejected. The treaty was modified to address the concerns of Irish voters. Ireland accepted.

"Ireland rejected, the treaty was modified, and the Irish government said 'despite your changes, we refuse to allow our electorate to revisit this'" doesn't sound like a better approach.

[spwa4]

You're talking about the first big EU farce, the Nice Treaty. Btw: "Nice", as in the Roman city in the south of France with the excellent Carnaval, not the English word.

But then there was the second farce, the "EU constitution":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu...

Note how many referenda and votes were planned ... but suddenly canceled after voters started rejecting the treaty. And note how the page does not say how the replacement, the "Treay of Lisbon" was adopted. Sure they would vote on it, right? Otherwise, what credibility would they have left?

Well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

Obviously there were no more votes on any EU future plans, with one exception.

I've worked for the EU Commission. Let me tell you: the bureaucrats there are angry about this. You see, the whole constitution was an attempt for the EU to become more democratic, gain credibility, by "sacrificing" power to voters. By the time the Treaty of Lisbon was created, the EU had lost power (much less than the constitution, but still some. Oh and they lost power to member states, NOT to voters), had "been forced" to push through the reforms anyway AND they had lost all credibility.

The only exception, the only vote on the EU's future? The Brexit vote ...