[wolvoleo]

To me it's really because they have broken that promise. Governments take advantage of that cohesion. It's not really because of the transactionality to my benefit but just because what they stand for is a net negative for society and the world.

Consider the military. Few wars are actually worth giving one's life for. Since 1945 basically none. If the Communists had won in Vietnam nothing would have happened to America. Iraq was based on false pretenses, Afghanistan accomplished absolutely nothing. My own country was part of some of these misguided adventures and has some of its own wars where it definitely was the evil aggressor.

Or think of the Nazis who exploited the very concept of this nationalism to destroy half the world.

So no. I do think it helps social cohesion but when a state is using that cohesion for evil it does not deserve to be followed.

I think we should outgrow this petty follow the leader attitude and think for ourselves.

[rootusrootus]

I share your disillusionment, but my preferred response would be Americans coming together and deciding that actually, we do care, and we do want a better society for everyone, a better government, less corruption, etc. I am not suggesting that everyone needs to subscribe to my idea of better, either, I am just saying that we could improve things just be getting a majority of people acting in good faith and having real discussions about the issues we face. A healthy debate where winning means everybody wins, and losing just means you rework and improve your ideas and arguments and keep on participating.

Man I'm an idealist today. Okay that's just about every day, thankfully. But nihilism sometimes tries to consume me too.

[wolvoleo]

Oh yeah I'm not an idealist. Or a team player (that much was clear I think). I'm more a 'fuck society' type like in Mr. Robot :)

I like to work with others to make things better but they have to be aligned in values. I don't do unconditional loyalty stuff.

[perilunar]

> If the Communists had won in Vietnam nothing would have happened to America

They did.

[wolvoleo]

True they did in the end but my point is, nothing bad happened.

Like, why did America even get involved in that shit anyway? It was a French problem (and really, it was fair they wanted to kick the French colonisers out).