[obscurette]

> Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools.

Btw, what makes a great teacher? One of my most influential teachers was universally hated by the rest of the class.

[bluGill]

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries.

Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

[obscurette]

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

[bluGill]

Eventually, though, we do need to say that we need to specialize. To become a great musician, you need to spend hours and hours practicing every day. There isn't time to also be a great physicist if you're going to be a great mathematician. Well, maybe you could be both, but it means you have zero free time at all to spend on things like having a social life is one point of life.

Still, until you're in your mid-teens, your needs are not much different from anyone else. You need to get the basics of education which are the same for everyone. As you get to your late teens, you need to start figuring out what your specialty is going to be and start moving in that direction.

I feel it's important to make this distinction because otherwise it's too easy to be arguing past each other when people don't realize that there are different stages of life that do have different needs.

[obscurette]

Good point. As a former highschool teacher, I tend to think on this (K12 in US terms?) level, but of course universal higher education wouldn't work. Some comments though. In my experience this point in life when people will figure out their direction varies wildly. I had classmates who figured it out in their early teens and others who found their way in late twenties. And even more important point against specializing too early - some of them had already three careers (I'm in my sixties). Times change, jobs disappear and strong universal foundation helps enormously if you have to start a new career.

[netcan]

I'm not sure that is the modern idea of education. As you can see in the linked example, it's there 200 years ago at the sunrise of universal and education. I'm sure it was there when Aristotle taught Alexander.

I think we can just call that "good" education vs.. the best we can do.

If you are thinking about the individual, you are going to be thinking about individualization... Like the coach of a gymnastics team, chess club or whatnot.

I agree that from a societal, governmental or taxpayer pov... It's different. That is the "true" perspective if you are doing national policy, which is why that "woke stuff" is so often a disaster when applied to national education systems.

But... as a student or parent... not thinking about it individualistically is pretty pathological.

[IAmBroom]

You are, I think, blinded by the fact that you were a HS teacher. Primary grade teachers teach principle societal objects by rote and practice, not by encouraging students to "go discover the alphabet on their own". Middle-school takes it up a notch, and maybe by (USA) junior high school students' brains are ready for learning how to learn, but for me it wasn't until I reached HS that a teacher ever challenged me to interpret the "facts" I was presented with in a novel, personal way - to use my skillset to understand the facts, discern facts from propaganda or beliefs, and so on.