[delichon]

To stay near the frontier of AI without being subject to the discretion of foreign countries the EU has to stay near the frontier of R&D themselves. Even if they can get around ITAR now and self-host, they would be stuck with having to repeatedly negotiate permission to use each new advance.

If they do relax regulation (especially on energy generation) sufficiently to unleash the continent's big brained boffins and entrepreneurs on AI, they could quickly develop their own advances that would give them real leverage.

[re-framer]

What is it that makes gas power plants so much more attractive than renewable energy? From what I heard, it's a bit easier to build them very fast and they reliably produce energy on demand (as long as gas is available of course). But I imaging one could replicate this using solar/wind and storage units.

I could imagine that the challenge is that that having enough solar panels for a few gigawatts of consumption is hard to do on-site, so one needs to connect the data center to the grid, which, in turn, complicates matters and transformators are scarce right now.

Is this about right? I do hope that we find a way to do this more sustainably. AI doesn't solve climate change in the next few years, so clean energy isn't irrelevant.

[dcrazy]

My understanding is that you can turn gas plants on and off very quickly, and they can run at any time of day. That makes them excellent suppliers for peak demand. For much of the year, the evening peak occurs when the sun is not shining and the winds have died down, so renewables are not viable.

[2143]

Actually I’m not so sure about that. The turning on and off quickly part.

Because in my country (in Asia) there’s surplus energy from renewables (solar, wind) during the daytime, so much so that they’re having to shut things down because the grid can’t handle it (yet).

However at night we need power from traditional sources (coal, basically. We do have hydroelectric and nuclear power also, but that’s not sufficient).

They cannot shut down the coal plants during the day because apparently turning it back on is a tricky time consuming process.

They cannot run the coal plants at reduced capacity because that reduces the efficiency and increases the wear and tear of the equipment.

And the renewables also brought up another problem in that the power that comes is not steady (unlike the traditional sources).

All that is putting pressure on the grid.

The long term solution is to upgrade the grid to handle all this. And the government is working on it (I think). But that’ll take time to do. At least a decade.

Uhh, I don’t know much more technical details about all this. Maybe more knowledgeable members can contribute.

[skybrian]

Coal is different. Natural gas is commonly used for peaker plants that provide electricity only when needed. They’re a better fit for using along with other intermittent sources.

[dcrazy]

Yes, coal takes very long to start up. Natural gas is very quick.

[re-framer]

Renewables can be combined with storage technologies such as batteries, so the syllogism "no generation during Dunkelflaute, but need reliablye generation -> renewables not viable" is too simple. My question is about whether renewables with storage technologies are a viable replacement for the gas power plants.

[xienze]

> My question is about whether renewables with storage technologies are a viable replacement for the gas power plants.

I'm guessing probably not. If it was truly the no-brainer "cheap AND fast AND better" option everyone thinks it is, data centers would be rolling out renewables right now. They're not so dumb that they'd pass up on a superior, cheaper solution just because.

[dcrazy]

There are many facets of “viability”: technical, economic, political. There is obviously some reason why new gas plants are being built instead of renewables with storage.

[re-framer]

Yes, and I'm still interested in better understanding that reason. My previous response just noted that the explanation you gave seemed overly simplistic to me in that it did not address that renewable energy can be stored, making it less volatile.

[dcrazy]

I live near one of the world’s largest grid scale battery facilities. It was in the news last year for catching fire and filling the air with lithium. [0] So I’m aware of the technology’s existence. But I also know that it’s still a very young technology, with battery chemistry constantly improving. There are also inherent losses going to and from AC power, which is what the grid operates on and which most plants produce.

[0] https://www.readymontereycounty.org/emergency/2025-moss-land...

[apeescape]

I think you overestimate the currently available storage technologies. Batteries are very limited in capacity and super expensive in large scale. Hydrogen or synthetic methane might work, but those are gases, if you were opposed to them.

[legulere]

You can build gas power plants on site at your data center and don’t have to wait for the grid to be upgraded. In the long run gas will be replaced by cheaper renewables

[dipierro]

As far as I understand, building a large solar farm is still considerably _faster_ than gas turbine plant.

[throe9393i44i]

It is hard to operate renewables 24/7. At night and winter, you need a big array of generators and LED lights to shine on solars. Very inefficient.

Or for every solar you need a generator as a backup!

[re-framer]

I asked whether solar/wind in combination with storage technologies, including but not limited to batteries, was able to reliably power a data center.

[throe9393i44i]

Really, no! You were going to dump peak solar/wimd energy into grid, and play stupid why "backward" public utilities need gas to do stabilisation!

[mejutoco]

Batteries

[erwald]

I don't think ITAR has anything to do with any of this.

[delichon]

The export control directives on Anthropic are under the authority of the Arms Export Control Act. The International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) implement the AECA for commercial exports, including the "technical data" under control. This story is about circumventing ITAR directives.

[dgellow]

What specific regulations are currently blocking AI entrepreneurs?

[impossiblefork]

There may be an advantage to be able to use all available data.

[cyanydeez]

Or they can just wait for disease and famine, along with Israel and Russia, to destroy America from the inside. Or just get their fusion projects working.

[alephnerd]

> If they do relax regulation (especially on energy generation) sufficiently to unleash the continent's big brained boffins and entrepreneurs on AI

Capital. Capital, capital, capital.

The EU is still not a single unified economy and capital markets remains semi-sovereign.

Every Euro that goes out of (eg.) a Dutch taxpayer's pocket into an (eg.) German domiciled competitor gets pushed back against by national competitors as well as by the government.

You see this with French and German rivalry against Scaleway+OVHCloud versus Hetzner (edited because of early morning brain snafus) to Dassault versus Airbus.

But the issue is, a single unified capital market that overrides national sovereignty also leaves vast swathes of European voters at risk of unemployment via capital flight. You saw this with East Germany's shift towards the AfD following industry's shift to Poland.

So neither industry nor national governments (who remain the overriding power of the EU) have an incentive for a single unified market, and actually remain incentivized to work with outside partners instead.

[blfr]

Both Scaleway and OVH are French and partly made possible by France's inexpensive energy mix.

[alephnerd]

> Both Scaleway and OVH are French

Doh, I meant Hetzner

> partly made possible by France's inexpensive energy mix

Not really. Both developed well before the energy crisis when energy wasn't a significant input for DC construction.

The reason both succeeded is because French conglomerates continue to invest within France and only buy French.

It also didn't hurt that Xavier Niel and Klaba were able to leverage their preexisting telecom business and network.

[dgellow]

I really hope that will push for completion of the single market. I wouldn’t bet on it, but that’s something we should have done a decade ago

[alephnerd]

It won't. Once you actually visit Bruxelles or talk with ex-policymakers you realize they don't actually care to give up sovereign control to the EU.

It's still viewed as a prestige post, and European industries and states will continue to work with partners outside of Europe if it means surviving.

Additonally, capital consolidation within the EU also means subnational capital flight which means layoffs. For example, look at how East Germany shifted hard to AfD after Germany Inc left for Poland. Therefore, when push comes to shove, it becomes politically untenable.

[doctorpangloss]

Okay. Lemme ask you a simple question: why does Dario Amodei live in the United States? Why do his parents live here? What happened?

It's not the first time in recent history frontier technology has been developed and commercialized, before any of this "capital" you are talking about really existed. That's the easy part (print money). The hard part is, taking leadership to convince the citizens of a place to be... what? Do you know?

[convolvatron]

or, we could just wait a hot second, get GPU and associated hardware over the 30% utilization mark, develop a fault tolerance strategy that recovers more useful work, and spend a bit more time researching how models actually converge. 50% savings on training time would mean even more energy savings because of the add-on effects of cooling.

this spending of billions just to get a 4 month lead, without even trying to invest in getting this stuff to run properly is wasteful to the point of insanity. I don't think it's at all productive to chide people for not wanting to dump their resources into a black hole.

it seems pretty clear that the investors and the AI companies _like_ to throw around big GW numbers. it gives them a moat, and it fuels the bubble.