[Matl]

> It's hardly a declaration of fealty

As a European, the way I see it, Europe declared fealty to the US and relinquished its sovereignty a long time ago, sadly.

Also, the way these agreements tend to work is that you agree that you won't source from the 'enemy side' i.e. China. It works this way for NATO and it will work the same way here.

[fauigerzigerk]

>As a European, the way I see it, Europe declared fealty to the US and relinquished its sovereignty a long time ago, sadly.

No such declaration was ever made. Europe has just failed to compete.

[Matl]

> No such declaration was ever made

Of course not, there's no need for a 'declaration' that would be a hard sell to the European public. Actions is all that matters.

[voakbasda]

Indeed. The system’s purpose is what it does.

[gunsle]

Facts, but the Europeans, tankies, and America haters here will never admit it. Europe sold out its industries for social programs. Not our fault you guys chose social safety nets over industry.

[dadoum]

I don't think this narrative stands, industry and social programs coexisted for a very long time. I actually believe the opposite. It sacrificed its industry for intra-EU fairness and integration. A lot of industries were very reliant on gov grants and other state social programs that have got scarcer as EU gained power.

> Facts, but the Europeans, tankies, and America haters here will never admit it.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

[gunsle]

I’m not name calling, I’m describing. If you’re offended, you must be a tankie, lol.

[Matl]

I think Americans like yourself greatly underestimate what advantages having a unified language, legal system etc. brings. It may seem to many Americans that the EU is unified but it's much less so than you'd expect.

Social programs have little to do with it. You can have both industry and social programs if you just choose not to start random wars of aggression in the US too, something for which you need $1.5T apparently.

China has both more industry and plenty of social programs as an example.

[gunsle]

It does have everything to do with it. Why would anyone in Europe be motivated to build anything innovative if they know they will have the government taking 50% of every dollar they make to fund social programs they probably won’t even receive the benefits of? Why would anyone work hard in that environment? You’re completely ignoring the social/productivity implications of high taxation. Additionally, China does not have anywhere near the level of social programs Europe does. No one in China takes two months off a year as a checkout clerk.

[joe_mamba]

EU didn't fail because it never even tried.

Nobody in EU ever tried to build a domestic CPU that was even remotely comparable to what Intel and AMD, for them to have had the opportunity to fail.(No, ARM is IP not a builder)

Nobody in EU ever tried to build a domestic GPU that was even remotely comparable to Nvidia, ATI or 3Dfx for them to have failed.

We just let the US companies fight it out, see who could build the best products, and become forever customers to them and then 20 year later wonder how come their economy grew 2x as much.

[fauigerzigerk]

>EU didn't fail because it never even tried.

Of course the EU tries to compete with the US and in some industries it has done so successfully (e.g pharma or aviation). EU companies have also tried to compete in information technology - with some limited or temporary success.

ARM was founded in the EU. DeepMind was founded in the EU. Olivetti and Siemens had CPU designs and made computers. Nokia once dominated mobile. Ericsson was/is a leading telecom equipment maker. Skype used to be one of the most successful messaging apps. Spotify is a success. ASML is a success.

A certain Finnish university student started the operating system that now dominates the cloud, but for some reason I really do not understand, EU cloud providers like OVHCloud have failed to compete with the likes of AWS, Azure and GCP. And now the AI wave has completely washed over Europe.

The cloud situation is a mystery to me. Nothing stops EU companies like OVHCloud from competing there. Any anticompetitive behaviour is a very weak excuse. Europe can't even compete with something as mediocre as Palantir. Now everyone is calling for protectionism. Ridiculous.

AI is easier to understand. It requires huge capital investments. The US has far superior capital markets and far healthier attitudes towards risk taking. Europe's failure here was easy to predict but the consequences could be dire.

[Matl]

> ARM was founded in the EU

Yes, but it was span off from Acorn Computers, which had its own European OS, CPU, computer etc, but ARM was all that was left of what could have been a fully European Apple had it been given more support.

[joe_mamba]

>Of course the EU tries to compete with the US and in some industries it has done so successfully

I was talking only about SW and HW in the context of the current AI race. Not about legacy industries like aero and pharma. Everyone knows EU is only good at legacy industries, well except cars, they're getting ass whipped there too.

> Olivetti and Siemens had CPU designs and made computers.

None of those domestic designs ever competed commercially with the X86 or amd_64, which is why I made that specific reamark. Please read my comment again and don't try to argue in bad faith by moving the goalposts.

>ARM was founded in the EU. DeepMind was founded in the EU. Nokia once dominated mobile. Ericsson was/is a leading telecom equipment maker. Skype used to be one of the most successful messaging apps. Spotify is a success. ASML is a success.

Most of those have massive US shareholders/financial backing or have outright been brought up by US companies or PE firms or US shareholders. And Spotify being called a succes is laughable given they bootstrapped thanks to initially distributing music they stole off the torrents, and then shafting their smaller artist once they became a multi billion dollar music streaming monopoly.

>Europe can't even compete with something as mediocre as Palantir.

France is copying Palantir to make their domestic version. Chaps Intelligence.

>A certain Finnish university student started the operating system that now dominates the cloud

What does it matter if he's Finnish or not? Linus is an American citizen now living and working from the US, mostly consulting on linux kernel topics for US big-tech. Why did he leave lovely Finland for the "third world" US? That's the question EU gospelers can never answer. He didn't like having walkable cities and free healthcare?

[pseudony]

You are being very hostile and cherry-picking results- disregarding and denigrating those that don’t fit your narrative.

Wrt Linus - who knows? It is irrelevant; he is largely irrelevant. If he got ran over by a bus, the collective community (of whom quite a few are outside the US) will carry on.

[joe_mamba]

>Wrt Linus - who knows? It is irrelevant; he is largely irrelevant.

Saying Linus is irrelevant is the most ignorant thing.

He's like the Schrodinger of Europeans tech sovereign nationalists on HN, he's relevant in arguments where he's European, but irrelevant in arguments where he's American.

[capisce]

> Nobody in EU ever tried to build a domestic GPU that was even remotely comparable to Nvidia, ATI or 3Dfx for them to have failed.

Bitboys tried, but pivoted to embedded graphics and were bought by ATI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaze3D

Falanx Microsystems tried (not EU but close enough), also pivoted to mobile/embedded graphics and made the #1 shipping family of GPUs in the world: https://developer.arm.com/community/arm-community-blogs/b/mo...

[joe_mamba]

>Bitboys tried

Except Bitboys never shipped any actual GPUs, their products were mostly vaporware, all they had was some IP of unknown performance that ...

> were bought by ATI

My point exactly.