[miiiiiike]

It’s reaching the point of absurdity in my area. People are bringing “All data centers are flammable” signs to city meetings.

A plot of land that’s already zoned for the heaviest of industrial activities, is across the street from a dump, 3 miles from an airport, 16 miles from a nuclear generating station, and in a region with good climate, and no water crunch is a pretty good place for a data center.

Facts don’t matter, it’s a religious fight. Even if you provide numbers specific to the local area there’s no way to pierce the rhetoric.

Too much land? I added up lol the land used by the 10+ golf courses in the area. Dwarfs the proposal.

Too much water? I called the head of the parks department and asked them how much water the golf courses that they operate use each year. Massive.

Regional electricity costs going up? Our nuclear generating station already sells 80-85% of all power generated wholesale to other markets.

Data centers are loud? I measured the noise outside of my house. I live on a busy street. It was much louder than the viral videos going around Facebook with titles like “Data center noise from my porch SCARY MUST WATCH”.

I don’t know about all proposed data centers everywhere, but the one they’re eyeing to build in my backyard is fine by me.

I lived in Northern Virginia for years. Data centers are everywhere.

It’s really hard to explain that centers aren’t bad and are actually far more efficient than the alternatives. Just don’t run them on coal, natural gas, or the souls of orphans. And don’t rely exclusively on evaporative cooling if it’s in the desert.

They’re having fun treating tech people like villains. It was the same or worse with bankers back in 2008-2010. Anything I have to say, any data provided, any comparisons made, are biassed because I “use data centers”. When I explain that they use data centers as well, I get the finger.

When I talked to an anti data center family member who runs a local Facebook news group (5,000+ subscribers) they just kept sending me Google AI summaries as counter points… My god. I don’t even use gen AI.

People want to enjoy the benefits of progress and data centers while still being loudly “moral”. All of this on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube. How many data centers are involved to get a post from poster to viewer? 2? 3? 8?

A bad data center project proposal somewhere should not mean opposition to data center projects everywhere.

[qurren]

> It’s really hard to explain that centers aren’t bad and are actually far more efficient than the alternatives.

This isn't about efficiency, power, water, or fire. AT ALL.

Massive amounts of people have their jobs and livelihood threatened. The datacenters, which are enabling that, are being deployed in their neighborhoods while everyone in that neighborhood goes jobless. There is no plan of relief in the form of better economic policy, UBI, less taxation of actual humans, or anything else. That is the real crux of what is being fought.

[twoodfin]

“Everyone in that neighborhood goes jobless”?

The US unemployment rate is currently 4.3%.

[classified]

That just means it has massive growth potential.

[miiiiiike]

I’ve noticed that people conflate being anti data center with being anti AI.

I don’t have any faith in the current crop of gen AI. I think it’s junk. I don’t think it’s replacing humans in drives. I can barely get it to refactor Sass code into a mixin.

Even if the AI bubble pops the world isn’t going to need fewer data centers.

If a speculator wants to create a bunch of construction jobs, build a site in a region with the power, water, climate to do so responsibly, and give us a bunch of money in property taxes. I’m for it.

I don’t care if his company folds and he loses his shirt. Someone will operate the data center.

They can’t get back the money they injected into the community during construction.

Eat while there’s food.

[qurren]

It's junk for mission-critical software. But stock photographers, tutors, therapists, writers, translators, designers, and others are being replaced in droves. The snowball is starting.

Even plumbers. AI told me what to buy from Home Depot and I diagnosed and fixed my last 2 plumbing problems myself.

And lawyers. I fought some minor issues on my own with AI guidance.

[miiiiiike]

What a bad idea AI therapy is and I don’t know too many people who are using AI art commercially. Translators, sure. But we’ve been using Google Translate for almost two decades now.

You didn’t need AI for your plumbing. My dad had a whole set of books on household chores that we used to fix everything.

I do more of the work around my house than most. I won’t touch tall trees to fuck with my breaker box. I do most of my own plumbing.

But, plumbers are fine. Most people don’t want to handle their own shit.

[qurren]

> What a bad idea AI therapy is

People will use it, because they don't have money for real therapists, because they also lost their own job. Maybe you can give them free therapy if you think it's a bad idea?

> I don’t know too many people who are using AI art commercially

I see AI stock images absolutely everywhere in the news now, AI portraits all over the place, AI relit product images absolutely everywhere.

> You didn’t need AI for your plumbing. My dad had a whole set of books on household chores

I don't have time to read books when I have a plumbing issue and other shit to do. Normally I'd have paid $200 for a plumber. But with AI I didn't have to read the books, and I was able to solve it myself for $30.

[miiiiiike]

I think current gen AI is junk. I don’t use it. I also don’t see mass job losses over it. Scapegoated? Yes. Actual mass unemployment? No.

Commercially, I typically see AI used in what amount to scams. And no, I don’t believe that anyone should be using it for therapy.

You don’t have time to glance at a diagram in a book but you have time to ask AI and go to Home Depot and do it yourself?

If you’re worried about job loss, pay the plumber.

You could argue that you still put money into the local economy by shopping locally. The money you saved by doing it yourself could be spent locally on dinner and ice cream. Money is fungible.

If you’re concerned about the impacts of AI you could start to mitigate them by choosing not to use AI yourself.

It’s been a few hours. I’ve said all I have to say under this post. I’m going to stop replying now.

[AngryData]

You don't have to read the entire book to figure out your one problem, that is what the index is for. Also you could of googled your problem 10 years ago and found the same answer with what, an extra 10 seconds?

[williamdclt]

You're not wrong that the position of many anti-datacenter people isn't entirely rational (in the sense of "backed by solid numbers"), but you're entirely missing the point of why they are angry.

Consider this:

    - People are struggling more and more financially, with income that does not keep up with inflation
    - People are seeing inequality rise with the ultra-rich getting ultra-richer
    - People are seeing climate change quickly changing their environment for the worst: droughts, heatwaves, storms...
    - People are expecting climate change to make their financial prospect worse, too

And now, they see a wave of building datacenters. Not only do these data centers have externalities for the climate, but their _purpose_ seems like a negative: putting their jobs at risk because AI, redirecting this wealth to the ultra-rich. There's nothing for them in this, it's lose-lose!

And they see their own government encouraging and subsidising these projects, how could they not feel betrayed?

> People want to enjoy the benefits of progress and data centers while still being loudly “moral”.

I don't think so. People would rather these benefits weren't there, but people exist in society and balance principle with practicality. You're allowed to criticise how AI is being brought into society while also using AI yourself, moral purity isn't a requirement to having opinions.

[miiiiiike]

No, I know why they’re angry.

Hell, I don’t even use gen AI, I still think it’s unreliable junk.

However, most of the things that the people in my community are concerned about don’t apply to our region specifically. We’re actually in a position to benefit GREATLY. It’s useful to have that conversation.

[watwut]

What is the benefit? They provide no jobs and demand tax cuts.

[miiiiiike]

Property taxes. Construction jobs. The land is unused and already had tax incentives. Remember, tax incentives don’t eliminate taxes, they just reduce them for a period of time to encourage development.

[AngryData]

Many of these data centers are demanding tax breaks from the local governments, so taxes isn't a great excuse. The construction jobs are a one off deal, most of which will be done by non-local firms that specialize in large construction projects that don't exist in areas with "unused land". And then you also have to account for the higher power costs people in the area will be paying which is just another subsidy to big business on top of the stack of them that area already paid out to big business.

[simianwords]

This is extremely misleading. They provide a lot of tax that pays for all the externalities.

[lelandfe]

Surely you have some measure of empathy for their position? I’m sure you certainly did in 08, as people lost their homes.

I think it’s a topic that’s scary to many and this datacenter-to-be, or the local banker, just happens to be what they can easily protest.

[miiiiiike]

2008 is apples vs oranges. The proposed data center site is across the street from the dump, just south of the airport. It’s zoned for heavy industrial use.

Literally anything that they could build there other than a data center would have a greater negative impact on the environment and a far less positive economic impact.

I could build a concrete crushing plant there.

[oblio]

Most other things they could build there could create a lot more local jobs.

[miiiiiike]

And create a lot more pollution while generating much, much less in property tax revenue.

[oblio]

You mean the other businesses (not the DCs) generate more pollution and don't bring in less property tax revenue?

Pollution, ok, regular industry generates more. But property tax revenue? Why would DCs provide more property tax revenue?

[miiiiiike]

In Northern Virginia data centers are about 3% of land, but account for almost 50% of local property tax contributions.

[parineum]

> I’m sure you certainly did in 08, as people lost their homes.

It's funny that this is such a common takeaway from 2008. The bankers are bad because people lost their homes.

It's the right guilty party and the right victim but not the right crime.

The bad thing was bankers irresponsibly putting those people in homes in the first place. The people were always going to lose those homes because they couldn't afford them.

[oulipo2]

You realize that "golfs are even worse so why people complain" is not a serious argument?

[miiiiiike]

That’s not the core of the argument. You know that.

I’m putting things into perspective for people who are terrified that the last drops of their potable water and going to be used to generate a meme video.

[oulipo2]

Yes. Because a few golf course are produced every 10 years / 20 years or so. But people generating videos is going to increase exponentially. So this is going to be a huge difference

[spencerflem]

One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes, and they’re using it for technology that disempowers and annoys people. It’s pretty obviously offensive.

All for rezoning golf courses too

[xp84]

Nobody's shutting off those 150 homes to take their electricity, though. They have to buy it themselves. Lots of industrial things take tons of energy, from metal smelting to food production.

Oh, and datacenters alone shouldn't even make electricity more expensive, because rates are regulated. The state regulators have to approve rate raises. Now, are the regulators a bunch of stooges captured by the utilities who always do their bidding? Probably! But that's a good reason to throw your corrupt state politicians out of office and hopefully run them out of town on a rail -- not to protest datacenters.

[multjoy]

Metal and food are useful, though.

[cobbzilla]

the irony of making an implied point that data centers aren’t useful, by using data centers.

[AngryData]

Pretty sure hackernews doesn't take a giant datacenter to run. Its a text-only website managed by nerds. If HN didn't care about redundancy they could probably host it out of somebody's basement.

[cobbzilla]

And there are zero data centers in between facilitating anything?

[multjoy]

The irony of suggesting that this site is useful.

[anthonypasq]

> One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes

Is this supposed to scare me or something? I can't even fathom the actual point you are trying to make if it doesn't involve me having an emotional response to this statement.

[spencerflem]

Seems pretty obvious- that datacenters very measurably contribute to rising costs of electricity and climate change , and unlike aluminum processing or farming which makes things people want, is used for AI which a lot of people resent. It’s a lose-lose

[anthonypasq]

> datacenters very measurably contribute to rising costs of electricity and climate change

the people who make this true are the same people who oppose the data centers. if they just let people build solar and data centers neither of those things would be true.

[spencerflem]

Who’s saying not to build solar?

[pesus]

Currently, it's the US government, who is very opposed to renewable energy sources and very in favor of data centers/AI.

[ghaff]

There's plenty of opposition to solar farms at the local level.

[catapart]

Wild to see people pretend like this isn't true while we're still in the middle of seeing how badly this shit has already fucked up hardware prices.

in b4 the 'apples and oranges' cope

[parineum]

> One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes

Are you counting the externalized data center use of the people in that house?

[micro2588]

But in PJM they are almost entirely being powered by natural gas and coal? Even if you contract out power from a nuclear plant some other plant on the grid is now enjoying a higher capacity factor, at the margin natural gas.

The data center in question in Utah was marketed as a 9GW full build out natural gas facility more than twice the electrical generation of the entire state. Coal electrical production in the US increased 13% last year.

[miiiiiike]

I don’t defend every data center everywhere. I’m talking about the proposed data center about 11 miles from my door.

In my area we have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from that site. It sells 80-85% of all power generate wholesale to other markets. We have the power infrastructure here.

[micro2588]

The amount of nuclear generation is roughly fixed (minus the refurbishment of three mile) in that region. If you add additional large load to the grid and outbid other demand for that power you are just shifting the load you replaced to other sources, which in PJM region would be mostly gas (new or existing) and delaying the decommissioning of existing base load coal plants. Renewables in that region are unfortunately a small percent of electrical generation.

I do agree that other demands like water consumption are overblown and could be largely regulated to enforce best practices. What infrastructure we are building as a society to meet this load demand is going to be the lasting impact of this generational infrastructure investment and it's looking like that will be mostly fossil fuel based in the near to mid term.

[miiiiiike]

I’m only talking about my local area. I’m not defending the Colossus sites. I don’t live near them.

[micro2588]

It is much more than the Colossus sites, I would look at the capacity additions in the regional grids you are apart of and what is being funded to meet these increases in demand from data centers. The majority of it is natural gas generation and a sizeable but minority amount of battery storage. Just outbidding people for a relatively fixed amount of clean nuclear ignores the second order effects of adding large loads like these. What happens in your area does have larger impacts.

[miiiiiike]

Again, I’m talking about my region. We have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from the proposed site of the data center. That station sells 80-85% of the power generated wholesale to other parts of the state and grids regionally.