[mytailorisrich]

It depends on the job and country.

In Western Europe workers are very protected so unless you are in a low end job or specific public sector job and might gain from collective wage bargaining there is often little actual benefits in being in a union, taking into account that membership isn't free.

[6LLvveMx2koXfwn]

I wonder why workers in Western Europe are so protected.

[mytailorisrich]

The fact that unions played a big role in the past does not imply that they are as important now because of the changes in legal protection, types of jobs, and society.

[6LLvveMx2koXfwn]

If you believe the legal protections in place as a direct result of the labour movement (of which Unions are just one part) will remain in place in the face of constant well funded opposition by Capital then I have a case study for you in the UK, we call them Zero Hours Contracts.

[iamacyborg]

Another UK example, you effectively have very limited rights until you’ve worked for a company for 2 years. Before then they can fire you for any reason they care to.

[arethuza]

I think that is changing though: https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/

[mytailorisrich]

Zero hours contracts were never banned in the UK and in fact have been restricted over the years and debate is still ongoing on whether to ban them altogether.

We have diverged significantly from my original point...

[tovej]

Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions.

Just look at Finland. Here, the current government first made it illegal for unions to strike when the government takes action to weaken employment law, and then they significantly weakened employment law.

The only protection left is collective bargaining agreements, which can still uphold some of the old legal protections through contract law.

This was also only possible after decades of work by industry lobby groups to significantly weaken unions by targeting them with tax code changes, splitting up unemployment funds from unions (with the employers then founding their own unemployment fund, so that union membership is drained).

Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.

[AnthonyMouse]

> Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.

The major other defense is competition. If there were infinitely many workers then unions would be useless to begin with, because employers would just let them walk out and hire someone else.

Individuals can likewise use the fact that labor is finite to make employers offer more by credibly threatening to work somewhere else. This is trivially shown by all the people who make an above-median wage despite not being in a union.

You do, however, need competition for that, and in turn to not have laws that prop up incumbents and create barriers to entry to new companies (i.e. new prospective employers).

[mytailorisrich]

> Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions.

That's very clearly not true based on the situation in Western Europe, in fact legal rights tend to keep increasing even when union membership is decreasing (e.g. UK, France).

As said, jobs and society as a whole have evolved and noone can be elected in government by promising to take away important protections, what they can be elected on is promising to curb union power but that the unions' fault when they abuse striking action.

My understanding is that workers are extremely well protected in Finland and what's happened is only some restrictions on political and solidarity strikes.

Edit: Unions are not the only defense that workers have. We have democracy with all sides represented and nowadays (in Europe at least) more is done through elections than through unions. That's why I said that society had changed compared to the early days of the labour movement.

[tovej]

I just gave you an example. How can you say it is "very clearly not true".

You would have to somehow disprove the reality of what has already happened in order to make that statement

[tialaramex]

Facts-aren't-True people make up a truth they like and then any inconvenient facts can be disregarded because facts-aren't-true.

It's a really popular ideology - it doesn't have any actual successes but since its followers don't believe facts are true the fact it's a dead end doesn't matter to them.