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by UltraSane 37 days ago
Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.
3 comments

That's not true. Islamic finance forbids indefinitely growing interest. Sharia finance agreements involve fixed fees or equity shares. Late penalties can be collected but must be donated, not profit. In all cases, the borrower never owes to the lender for the lender to keep more an a fixed amount determined at the strat.
Shares and Goodwill. You loan money for good well or share of an enterprise which comes with benefits and risks.
Usury is so delicious to many that it’s unfathomable to consider any other incentive comparing to it
What is unfathomable is how you have a functioning economy without easy access to loans at reasonable interest rates.
Try reading Graeber/Wengrow
The same way Stock Market works. Really, Debt benefits a tiny fraction of people involved in the market.
Isn't it just the same thing? You loan the company money and in return they give you a note that says you get a portion of the company and dividends?

Different mechanics, but stripping everything away, roughly the same.

No, because if the company loses money you lose too.

With Usury/Debt you pay for lending money and you pay whatever the enterprise makes money or not.

So equity instead of debt.
a stranger is asking you to risk $100k on his half-baked plan in exchange for nothing, and you say "sure go ahead take my money!"? no. it doesn't work like that in the islamic world.

as a borrower who's not allowed to compensate for your lenders' risk monetarily, your access to loans is severely restricted. Essentially you have to rely on your extended family. and instead of paying for the risk with interest payments, you have to pay with loyalty and subservience.

it restricts social mobility far more than the western model. it incentivizes clan structures. which incentivize cousin marriage.

power concentrates in the patriarchs of a million little family kingdoms. which causes all kinds of economic inefficiencies.

in the US, even if you're born without any family connections, as a healthy 20 year old you can find a job (hard work) that allows you to save $70k per year and invest it. when you're 30 you have $1M and a good credit history, you can easily leverage that to get a $2M loan at low interest rates, which allows you to start any kind of productive venture you want.

and you can do all this without owing your clan's patriarch access to e.g. your most profitable clients, or your daughters hand in marriage to his retarded son, or anything else he wants in exchange for his generosity.

“a stranger is asking you to risk $100k on his half-baked plan” is more less what YC is. And no debt involved.

You can correct yourself from there.

And in exchange YC demands a large percentage of ownership of the company. Completely different than a loan for 5% interest.
What are you basing this on? The current $.5M up front for 7% ownership deal?

https://www.ycombinator.com/deal/

If you don't understand the difference between a loan for 5% interest and 7 freaking percent of your entire company then you really don't understand finance at all.
Loaning money as per Islamic Law is a charitable act, not one of exploitation.
Nice to get a callback to previously acquired knowledge with what I assume is an arabizi (sp?) handle.

Islamic trade is certainly one of the best models out there but I think in many cases in practice it is still applied subversively.

It is not enough to ban mechanisms like usury, designed and intended to exploit.

One has to go after the very subversion of legitimate practices for illegitimate goals.

reasonable interest rates aren't exploitation. Business Loans serve a critical role in economic activity by putting free cash to more productive use.
All interest is usury in Islamic Law (and the laws before it such as Christianity and Judaism). There are ways to to put free cash into productive use without exploitation.
I understand and I disagree. Interest isn't always "exploitation". A 5% loan isn't exploitation and it is very stupid to ban such things.
I think it's easy to look around us to see why it makes complete sense to prohibit it.
If going by the very poor economic performance of Muslim countries I would say interest is a very good thing if limited to reasonable interest rates and fair bankruptcy laws.