[9dev]

Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.

[keiferski]

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

[pwinnski]

The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.

[keiferski]

It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.

[jeromegv]

We are talking of entrepreneurship and new companies, what small business are required to do for returns/refunds in the US is definitely not ahead of Europe for consumer protection.

It's not word choice, you are just making the wrong argument.

[lompad]

Try canceling your NYT subscription.

[r4indeer]

Let me support your argument by telling you what you just reminded me of...

I was briefly subscribed to the NYT from Germany. To my surprise, I couldn't cancel online, but had to call. (The EU has a law which requires that if you can subscribe online, you must be able to cancel online.)

They have national numbers for many countries, but they're just forwarders to the same call center, with notably mangled audio quality presumably due to multiple lossy compression algorithms applied at each hop of the call.

Additionally, there was lots of background noise when I got connected to a rep. Over this barely usable line, I was now asked to spell out my email address, which naturally took multiple attempts of painfully slow spelling before the rep was able to locate my account. (My very limited knowledge of the NATO alphabet didn't help.)

Of course, I then had to go through the spiel of declining alternative offers and providing a reason for my cancellation (all of which I never had to do in Germany before) before they finally confirmed it. Yeah, I'm glad about consumer protection law in the EU.

[Saline9515]

The same exists in the EU, French Le Monde (NYT local equivalent) required you for a long time to send a registered letter costing 7€ and a trip to the post office to cancel your subscription.

[glad_duck]

So don't subscribe. It's not that hard to cancel though, yes, you need to spend some time on the phone.

[glad_duck]

Don't buy if you don't like company policy, no need to have a law. There is plenty of choice in the US. Some companies even offer 90 days (again, no laws required).

[9dev]

I'd find it tiresome real quick to always have to research before purchasing anything if the vendor will treat me with respect. Having a baseline of what you can expect from any business relation guaranteed by law is pretty great, really.

[glad_duck]

Really? There are tons of ways to cheat and game any system, including consumer protection. No laws can close this completely. Darwin award is still a thing and will always be.

[tyg13]

most large companies, maybe, but small-to-medium-sized businesses can and will tell you to take a hike. there are no consumer protections in the US regarding returns beyond the goodwill of the company

[glad_duck]

That's why they are dying (those who tell you to take a hike). Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? It's your choice. Honestly, I bought enough stuff from small to medium companies and most of them allow returns. If not, it's my choice not to buy. Not everything should be a law, and laws are not free, somebody has to pay (just like for 30 day return). Guess who pays? Well, it's ... you.

[9dev]

> Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days?

Perhaps because you don't want all retail to be Amazon?

> laws are not free, somebody has to pay

Isn't that a bit hyperbole? That law is written once, and delivers its effects afterwards. In contrast, millions of buyers have to investigate return policies every day without such a law. Is that really a better use of time?

[glad_duck]

It's not a hyperbole. Generous return terms means you are paying more for goods, everybody does. Where do you think goods returned to Amazon go to die? They are sold at discount, and Amazon is not dumb, they are not working at a loss, so you pay more for new goods. The less risk, the higher the price. If you have a law, that means no matter where you buy, you pay a premium as it's already included. I would prefer to have a choice.

And you don't have to buy on Amazon, most companies in the US accept returns in this way or another. Some ask you to pay a small premium for returns, it's up to you to pay it or not. Those who don't accept back damaged goods (no matter what policy is) usually got chargebacks which are commonly approved by the banks, and it's pretty expensive for sellers. So there are many ways to regulate returns, law is not the only one.

[scottyah]

As it should be when you buy a product IMO. It only works out in high-trust societies and the business model is ruined by scammers. REI is a great example, some people would buy shoes, wear them out, then return them years later because the policy accepted it. It's obviously not a way to keep a company in business, but people just don't care because the reward for them is just too good to pass up.

There's a lot of overlap between protecting consumers and enabling scammers.

[WarmWash]

One of the major reasons US consumers shop with megacorp over small business is because of the no hassle returns.

[9dev]

Exactly my point. In Germany I can order from the smallest of webshops without even reading their return policy, because I am guaranteed favourable terms by law.

[toast0]

In the US, if the remote merchant doesn't accept a return (or is non responsive), a credit card chargeback would be in order.

The customer almost always wins those. And the merchant always has to pay a fee for the chargeback, even when they win, so they're incentivized to avoid them.

The merchant agreement isn't as effective as a well enforced law, but it's pretty close.

[ahlCVA]

This isn't without downsides though: As somebody with a niche technical hobby, it is hard for me to order from many suppliers because they understandably don't want to deal with consumer protection laws and thus exclude B2C transactions outright ("Verkauf nur an Gewerbetreibende").

I would be fine with waiving my right to returns but this is not possible on purpose, so my only options are to shop somewhere else (often not possible) or found a company (not possible because it would be Liebhaberei - "Running a company without intent to make profits").

[glad_duck]

B2B company in the US rarely sell to consumers either and their return policy is very different. Not necessary "no return", but only if damaged, not per spec etc. Since we don't have consumer protection laws here I guess it's based on different company structure and expected revenue. In your case it may also be VAT implications (similar problem here with sales tax).

[frugalmail]

So the person that wants to sell that ultra-unique item that isn't produced by mega-corp, and the person that wants to buy that ultra-unique item despite unfavorable return policies never gets their needs met.

[9dev]

Why would that be the case? Maybe you’re thinking of customised or commissioned items, which are an exception explicitly called out in the law and require a defect by the seller to return (so you can’t just return eg a painting made for you on a whim, but if it arrives damaged, you can)

[frugalmail]

Thats good to know, but I'm talking about that person that's trying to start a business, without incurring massive liability, doing small run 3d print jobs, some early run smart home device, some small one person SaaS, crochet niche hobby things, etc...

The type of thing that might go from side gig to actual long running business that could end up employing a bunch of people.

[tchalla]

What happens after 2 weeks?

[9dev]

You loose the right to change your mind and return the goods without any reason given, but of course you still have warranty of 6 months; if anything breaks with the product in that time, you can request the seller to make up by offering a repair, replacement, or refund (whatever they deem most appropriate), and while the seller can contest that, they are obliged to prove it’s your fault, not theirs. After that timeframe, this obligation reverses.

[tchalla]

How easy is it to enforce that warranty?