[ggreer]

The law doesn't ban them. It classifies fast e-bikes as motorcycles (which require registration, insurance, and a motorcycle endorsement).[1] This seems reasonable to me. The previous laws for e-bikes were based on outdated assumptions about battery & motor technology.

I do think it would make more sense to simplify (and future-proof) the law to just say, "If it can go >30mph on level ground and has a motor, it's a motorcycle." But similar to code, it's easier to add legislation than it is to modify existing rules.

1. https://apps.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=6110&Year=202... text: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2025-26/Pdf/Bills/Se...

[baron816]

Well, probably the right thing to do for large trucks and suvs is to reclassify them so that you need a commercial license to drive them.

[mikestew]

You know you can go buy a 45’ motorhome that weighs multiples of the heaviest SUV, and drive it home on a standard driver’s license? Last time I renewed my WA license, it was online and the eye test for my retirement-aged eyes consisted of a checkbox that asks, “your eyes aren’t shit, are they?”

I’m not arguing, but more pointing out that what you want will never happen.

[ultrarunner]

Yeah, my dad has one. It's terrifying. Even for him. These are commercial vehicles with a residential façade, but they are not maintained like commercial vehicles. If they weren't such a money hole I imagine they'd get popular to a point where they'd be restricted. As of now, they're not enough of a problem across a wide enough geographic for people to notice.

[forgetfreeman]

omfg I would love that. Like literally force manufacturers to put air brakes on anything above a certain weight limit and demand additional certification to operate one. Full Disclosure: I own four vehicles that would trigger this requirement, each for different reasons, and would be whistling and smirking in the DMV line to take the commercial test.

[briffle]

A commercial driver has a physical every year, severe restrictions on how they can drive, hours behind wheel, etc. But if you have 2 cataract surguries, oncoming dementia, and a body full of arthritis that can barely move, you can drive a 50' Class A Motorhome to your winter home in the South.

[loloquwowndueo]

That person clearly can’t walk so that’s why they have to drive, right?

[forgetfreeman]

Sounds utterly ridiculous I agree but there's something to be said for 60+ years of muscle memory, otherwise olds rocketing motorhomes off of cliffs or augering into the side of the local walmart would feature more prominently in the local news. Quit picking on paw paw and keep the fight where it belongs: suburbanite pavement princesses must die.

[ValentinPearce]

There are also countries that reduce the time a license is valid starting at a certain age and that require a medical test for renewal at all ages. IIRC Spain does that.

[forgetfreeman]

Or you know you could just veer entirely off-topic and turn this into some kind of ageist food fight. That's an option too I suppose.

[Der_Einzige]

No paw paw can go to hell where they belong.

[forgetfreeman]

I hope you live to be 90. :)

[sokoloff]

My class D (most typical) driving license is good to 26K pounds.

That seems crazy high to me, but then again, I’m hard-pressed to choose exactly the right lower value that would “perfect”.

[throw0101d]

> The law doesn't ban them. It classifies […]

The Shifter cycling channel recently polled viewers and came out with a pretty good classification system:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z35F2R7FeE&t=17m20s

"E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles.

Of course enforcement is key: importing, selling, on the road.

Also worth noting that in some places in the EU a automobile Category B also gives you Category AM allowances:

> In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence#Since...

[to11mtm]

> "E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles.

I'm going to respond to this pragmatically.

Realistically, the current Class 1/2/3 system more or less works.

Class 1 is pedal only, max 20MPH (but lots of bikes are sold as class 1 with lower limits, I think the one I got for my chosen sister is 10, maybe 15 tops.).

Class 2 is Pedal+Throttle, max 20MPH. Again, sometimes the manufacturers will have a lower cap (Wife's e-bike has a throttle cap between 12-15.)

But 7KPH is too little, at least for the US if you want to get more than low rate adoption of E-bikes as a mode of transportation [0]. At bare minimum you need something where the person can maintain balance and it's faster than a brisk walk.

Class 3 is, well I thought it was Pedal-only 28MPH but I think there's some conflicting data and hand-waving. i.e. some claim that Class 3 is 'throttle up to 20MPH, pedal assist up to 28MPH' but last I was aware a Class 3 shouldn't have a throttle.

But again, the confounding factor [0] means that some compromises may have to be made.

The worst part about all of this, is everything was more or less OK, until these e-motos and overpowered e-bikes went on the market, and parents bought them for kids without any thought of risk/etc or even paying attention to the 'offroad use only' disclaimers. I also put it that way because (sadly) if it was just adults getting splattered it would probably just get treated like any other motorcycle/cycling accident as far as actual action.

[0] - As a confounding factor, I'll give the example that in my state, an electric scooter qualifies as an 'electric skateboard' and thus so long as it has a throttle cap of under 25MPH, sure, go nuts unless there's a restriction via muni (e.x. some munis may ban use on roads with a speed limit over X mph) or DOT (e.x. public highway restrictions.)

[throw0101d]

> But 7KPH is too little […]

The 7kph is a throttle-based boost for pedal-assist to help you get going: think of something like a Urban Arrow where overcoming the stopped inertia may be difficult for a petite person:

* https://www.urbanarrow.com/family-bikes/familynext

Once you're moving it's not hard, and the 'regular' pedal assist keeps you moving, but starting from zero is a challenge. That 7kph limit would be sufficient to start, after which the throttle (boost) gets deactivated and you're using the 'traditional' pedal assist that is 30kph/20mph max.

[to11mtm]

.... I get what you're saying but I'm saying you need a better minimum for when people are tired [0]

I.e. "I have a mild disability and it would be nice to at least be able to limp home while just having to worry about balance and steering".

Personally? I don't need it, I can pedal fast or pedal long...

But I know people that have achieved much better mobility thanks to the ability to be able to travel a bit easier in my part of the states.

But restating, I'm talking about the bigger picture for adoption. Instead of forcing the pedaling, just wait for people to use it to enhance mobility and when someone inevitably forgets to check the charge level and start putting in some effort they realize... "Hey, that wasn't so bad".

When we think about alternative transportation in the US, we have to remember the starting point:

You are asking these people to give up air conditioning. You can't force them to make actual physical effort right away, they are worried that will make them get even more uncomfortable.

In the states, 10-15MPH throttle limited ebikes/tries/quads[1] would help a lot of people so long as the thing can stop reasonably well around here.

Heck, I'd wager, if someone could come up with a cheap-enough 'e-trike-ish' semi-suitable for grocery getting[2] in the more urban side of american suburbia, they could make a decent amount of sales quick enough given the current concerns around gas prices versus the oversized guzzlers so many people drive 1-2 miles to a grocery store and back with, and the traffic reduction that would result.

But it would Have to have that E-throttle at a decent speed option for the consumers that would make a difference from an environment/traffic standpoint to even dip their toes into.

I want to be clear; I've done proper to heavy commutes on everything between Chicago Schwinns and Tandems, sometimes carrying 30-50$ of 2007 era USD between rack bag and handlebars for grocery trips... I don't need to be won over.

I'm talking about winning over a critical mass. I'm talking about enough people adopting non-car transport that I can feel safe in my suburban shithole[3].

[0] - Again, at least personally, It is impossible for me to keep balanced on any bike I've owned under 5-6MPH... I do have inner ear balance issues however.

[1] - I dream of something along the lines of a Sun Recumbent side-by-side, mid-rear bumper seat with canopy and all... Maybe a little more upright-ish...

[2] - At minimum needs some sort of cooler mount, they can use ice packs etc. If tech gets cheaper you could say 'The delta-V of having a powered cooler is fine because it means we have more weight to balance and make fast stops safer'.

[3] - I am currently trapped between one of the most historically accident prone and one of the most historically deadly accident intersections in the state... Part of the whole 'had to unlock 28MPh assist' thing....

[consp]

Most of the AM allowance is grandfathered in if you had an A or B license, some still combine them though. For some countries (like mine), while AM has those maxima, but the only vehicles allowed in the AM category are low power mopeds (sub 45kph). So it's arranged via vehicle allowance, not drivers license requirements. Any ebike with a throttle would fall under that category.

[bootlooped]

I think it does ban them, effectively.

There is what some people say is a gray zone (I don't actually think it's that gray) where a device is too fast or powerful to be a legal e-bike, but also doesn't meet the requirements to be a road legal motorcycle. Will Progressive give me motorcycle insurance on my DIY e-bike without a VIN? Will the DVM register it? I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes.

I don't think that's necessarily a problem that needs solved. I'm fine telling the person that bought a Sur-Ron, "too bad, off road only".

[Aurornis]

> I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes.

Not true. It's common to convert dirt bikes into street legal vehicles with conversion kits that add the required pieces. Depending on the state, that means turn signals, a mirror, headlight, and tail light.

I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use only until they add the same equipment we require every other street legal vehicle to have. I also think it's reasonable if we tell them their electric motorcycle doesn't belong on the bike path.

[mothballed]

>I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use

If only that were actually the law. My roads are 100% private with absolutely zero tax payer funding yet the dumbass registration laws and requirement to display a plate even apply on my private road (only exempt if the owner white-lists traffic, which cannot be done under my easement rules which at best would only might allow me to black-list abusers). In fact pretty much all the roads in my town are completely privately funded and privately owned yet you still need registration/plate along with the legal mumbo jumbo to obtain it.

Pretty soon you realize the laws have nothing to do with the fiction of the laws being there to protect the public roads or public land or taxpayer funding or some such, it's a sham pretense that falls apart upon inspection of how they work.

[lobf]

>If only that were actually the law. My roads are 100% private with absolutely zero tax payer funding yet the dumbass registration laws and requirement to display a plate even apply on my private road (only exempt if the owner white-lists traffic, which cannot be done under my easement rules which at best would only might allow me to black-list abusers). In fact pretty much all the roads in my town are completely privately funded and privately owned yet you still need registration/plate along with the legal mumbo jumbo to obtain it.

It sounds like your roads are accessible by the public though, which means unregulated public traffic, which means all of the tools necessary to ensure a basic level of safety and accountability need to be followed. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, does it not to you?

Like, you still have to follow building codes, pay property taxes, and not murder people on your private property and that doesn't seem outrageous.

[zardo]

> I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use only.

Anywhere an ORV can be legally used. That's not just private property.

[michael1999]

Hard to get a plate if there's no VIN.

[Aurornis]

A VIN is assigned as part of the registration process.

This happens all the time. Even trailers need a VIN. If you build a trailer and get it registered, they will assign a VIN for it.

[sarchertech]

People get VINs and insurance for DIY vehicles all the time. There are companies that specialize in custom vehicle insurance.

[jeffbee]

People who say this is a "gray zone" are practicing motivated reasoning. It is not gray, they are just illegal. There doesn't have to be a "path to legality" for illegal motorcycles. The only "path" necessary is the one straight to jail for the guy who imports these from China and sells them to the public.

[gnarcoregrizz]

Which is too bad... They are great practical and reliable vehicles. You can't even ride them off-road either (CA), since the majority of _accessible_ off-road trails require a highway-legal vehicle, or are otherwise limited to hiking and biking.

So, the only real alternative is a dual sport, which is louder, heavier, faster, and has more emissions. The latest (only?) loophole is to find a plated, clapped out Honda or Yamaha dirt bike and do an electric conversion.

[sidewndr46]

well by 'more' emissions you'd mean infinitely more since most dual sports will be a 4 stroke engine.

[TulliusCicero]

True, it's not exactly the same situation, but it does ban them for the riders (the teens) who were previously on them.

You could make it more analogous by saying that we could enforce stricter regulations on big SUVs and trucks in terms of, say, driver licensing, and you'd still have a huge outcry if we tried that.

[mothballed]

It blew my mind the first time I rented a 35' long 26,000 GVWR diesel truck and drove it right onto the interstate. What you can accomplish on a simple US driving license is something special you can't get almost anywhere else in the world unless you count places where bribes work.

The EU cuts you off at like 8,000 lbs.

[TulliusCicero]

And you can literally fall asleep at the wheel and get away with a $300 fine: https://komonews.com/news/local/sleeping-tesla-driver-speedi...

[KetoManx64]

Gotta love regulation stifling the living daylights our of your society.

[mschuster91]

Or: Gotta love regulation keeping our societies alive.

The US averages 14.9/100k traffic fatalities, Europe 6.7 [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

[Scoundreller]

Canada beats the euro average at 4.7 but similarly allows regular Joe’s to drive a moving truck and trailer a car behind it with a general license.

+ Canada’s rates are better on a per km basis (even beating the Dutch).

Annual/biannual safety inspections are only required in 3 of 10 provinces and those 3 are on the smaller side (PEI, NS and NB).

Motor vehicle infraction enforcement is… an afterthought for Canadian police (they don’t think/care that their salary/town depends on it). But admittedly, even lighter than I’ve experienced in Europe.

It’s gotta be some other factor behind excess US road fatalities.

[to11mtm]

I think the majority of Canada's GWVR limits can be a factor; i.e. outside of Ontario it's less than half what the US limit is for a standard license.

I think also the lower number of lanes on routes like the 401 help, usually[0].

Even though it's been a while, every drive in Canada just felt more leisurely. Speed limits in general are lower, there's more stop signs where they should be.

[0] - Except when a whiskey truck tips over and it's now a 2 hour delay to the next exit...

[tinyplanets]

American drivers are also entitled assholes (I say as an American driver). How DARE you tell me I can't do what I want, when I want, or change my behavior in the slightest to benefit my society/local community?

[scottyah]

Nothing better than being alive! We should ban all forms of transportation that aren't walking, which will be heavily permitted.

[cogman10]

Those sorts of codes do exist already. The problem is that bike manufacturers will put on a "go fast" switch with a "Don't flip this or you'll be breaking the law" note in the manual.

Of course, a lot of people flip that switch because 20mph can feel pretty slow.

[verytrivial]

The Dutch seem to just do the sensible thing and have mobile e-bike dynos. If they suspect the bike is not properly regulated, they'll test it and keep it if it fails.

[bryanlarsen]

AFAICT, lots of people in the Netherlands also complain about kids on fat tire ebikes that look like motorcycles.

OTOH people in 80's complained about kids on BMX bikes terrorizing the neighborhood, and those things were slow.

[ajuc]

Id we wanted to do sth similar for SUVs and Trucks it would be a special driving licence required, with additional requirements and more expansive insurance.

[bastawhiz]

Counterpoint: why am I able to buy a Ram 2500 and drive it without a CDL? I rented one recently to help a friend move some furniture and it's an unbelievably big vehicle.

The example of the standard you suggest could equally apply to large motor vehicles: you need special training above and beyond the status quo for vehicles that meet a certain standard. To your own point, motor vehicle laws were largely written based on outdated assumptions about the size of trucks and SUVs.

[tayo42]

You can rent and drive a truck bigger then that at uhaul

[bastawhiz]

Arguably you shouldn't be able to, at least without being qualified to drive it. Just because it's legal doesn't mean someone made the active choice for it to be legal.

[cucumber3732842]

Back in the 20th century, before electric bikes, when I was but a wee lad the neighborhood Karens screeched until the local PD dropped one of those mobile "your speed is" trailers onto my street for about a month.

It turns out 12yo me could go 29mph on a mountain bike.

30 is too low IMO. Make it 35 or something. 25 is a joke.

[kube-system]

I like going fast as much as the next guy, but lets be real, the safety profile of someone pedaling 30 mph is not the same as someone pressing a button to go 30 mph.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/1tu6v9d/scooter_...

When you're pedaling at 30 mph, you're much more likely to be engaged, paying attention, and under ideal conditions. Folks who cruise at 30 at the press of a button, tend to actually do so consistently. Anyone who rides on a bike path anywhere today can obviously observe the differences in behavior.

[ggreer]

I picked 30mph because that's the current threshold for what is considered a motorcycle in the state of Washington. Until recently, e-bikes were exempt from this because the old law was made back when e-bikes were rare and couldn't go much faster than regular bicycles.

I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike. That's why I said, "and has a motor". Heck, a fast runner can endanger people on the sidewalk. When I'm running, I often slow down in crowded areas so that if someone does randomly veer into my path, I'll have time to avoid them.

If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need.

[cucumber3732842]

> that's the current threshold

The current threshold is dumb. The whole premise is dumb. Ebikes don't need legislating beyond enforcing existing laws about cycling on sidewalks and the like.

>I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike.

It's also pretty clear that the geometry of the vehicle was not really optimized for such speeds. I don't think anyone going 30+ (commuting, the spandex crowd who rides for fun is a different story) thinks it's ok to be doing that around pedestrians or anything else sketchy. Most of the problems seem to simply be correlation to accessibility of speed to problem demographics, teenagers and the like. You'll have that problem regardless of form factor. 70yr ago the boomers were drunk crashing muscle cars because those were accessible.

>If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need.

Depends wholly on other unrelated demographic factors IMO. What can these people do for the government vs what problems do you cause it is the primary driver of whether you get stomped or pandered to.

[jorvi]

You do realize e-bikes only go 25 km/h? You're confusing them with speed pedelecs. Those go around 50 km/h, although that's still a far cry from scooter speeds, let alone motorbikes.

[Pingk]

In some European countries, yes, but other countries like the US have different laws. The UK doesn't have a classification for a speed pedelec, just the 25kph class.

[Sohcahtoa82]

What defines an "e-bike" varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It also changes when talking in a colloquial context.

There are electric riding devices that are bicycle-shaped that go up to 45 mph (72 km/h) that are being sold as "e-bikes".

It's why it's hard to talk about e-bikes and regulation surrounding them because you can say "e-bike" and people think you're talking about entirely different things.

For example, in Oregon, for something to be an e-bike, it must be only pedal-assist and only up to 250 watts, which really will only take you to about 15-20 mph. If it has a throttle button so it doesn't require pedaling, then it's classified as an e-motorcycle, regardless of power rating, and so is licensed and registered like a motorcycle.

But enforcement is weak, and parents often don't know, so they'll buy their kids what is legally an e-motorcycle and they'll rip through neighborhoods at 45 mph, not even aware that their kids even riding one at all is illegal.

[bee_rider]

Are these categories very widely recognized in the e-bike community or in legislation? I’ve never heard of a pedelec (but I’m not well informed).

[complex_pi]

Where I live (western EU) it's simple. If the speed is limited to 25 km/h it's an e-bike. Above it's a speed pedelec and requires registration plate + insurance.

[gambiting]

Just to be clear - it's not the speed that is limited, it's the assistance that is. You can still pedal above 25km/h on your ebike just fine and it's legal, but it has to stop giving you assistance above it(in contrast to say, mopeds, which have to be speed limited to 45kph).

[kube-system]

Most US states allow 28 mph e-bikes. Some limit it to 20 mph. E-bike laws -- like all traffic laws in the US -- are set by the states. (as you may notice, even our cars do not have "united states" license plates)

[ninalanyon]

In Norway e-scooters don't require registration plates but do require liability insurance. It's less than 100 NOK per month (~10 EUR).

[crooked-v]

The basic problem that causes laws like these to be passed is companies selling technically-legal "e-bikes" that are, in practice, electric mopeds you can remove the speed limiter and useless-but-technically-functional pedals from with fifteen minutes of work, converting them into illegal motorcycles.

[TulliusCicero]

You do realize e-bikes exist beyond Europe? In the US, e-bikes can go up to 20mph (32 kmh) or 28 mph (45 kmh) depending on classification.