[usef-]

Z.ai is also believed to be "subsidised". Its parent company is running at a large loss right now.

Anthropic have claimed they expect their first profitable quarter this year -- they may have bigger margins on their raw API than you realise.

[stavros]

We're all sure they have big margins in their raw API, it's the subscription we're claiming is subsidised.

[usef-]

Oh I know. But people often point to the API usage cost as an indicator of the magnitude of subsidisation, or to say that the big labs are far less efficient than cheap competitors.

I'm saying that this is not necessarily the case. They do a lot of optimisation and don't have the same price pressure to lower margins. They may not be losing as much on subscriptions as people think.

[stavros]

Oh hm, I've never seen this. API prices have always been exorbitant, I'm sure they're making good margins on that. Let's hope they aren't losing as much on subscriptions, because I'm not ready for everything to be API costs.