[sph]

> Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness

The visual metaphor from Taoists is being like 'uncarved wood'. Western Zen has been bastardised and commercialised, whereas one can look into Taoism to find many of the same concepts that, by virtue of their own simplicity, have remained timeless. The "problem", so to speak, with Zen is being associated with Buddhism, which has a long and intricate history and body of works attached to it, yet moves towards the same line of simplicity and spontaneity of Taoism.

In the words of Alan Watts, it all starts with the eternal Tao; all other religions are for people that need the same ideas overcomplicated with too many words.

[jdw64]

You seem to know quite a lot about the East. Buddhism and Taoism are a bit different, of course, but your understanding is largely in line with how Eastern popular thought actually sees things. It seems like you've done a fair amount of business with Easterners.

[turzmo]

Would either of you have a recommendation on where to start learning about either?

[sph]

My journey into this world started with Watts' "The Way of Zen", and later, with his posthumous book "Tao: The Watercourse Way"

And I am a big fan of Ron Hogan's "Getting Right with Tao" translation/modern interpretation of the Tao Te Ching.

[AlexCoventry]

I just finished Everyday Zen by Charlotte "Joko" Beck, and it's very pragmatic and good, IMO, though you won't learn a lot of doctrine from it.

Zen is not a good Buddhist tradition to start with unless you have a skilled personal teacher, IMO. I would recommend starting with something like dhammatalks.org instead. (Click on the "For Beginners" header near the bottom of the page.)

[jdw64]

Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching (Translated Ursula K. Le Guin) The Way of Lao Tzu (Wing-tsit Chan)

[quantumink]

Of all the translations of the Tao I've come across, none dissolved me into the flow as deeply and effortlessly as Ursula's.

I try to keep multiple copies around so I always have a couple to gift to someone...

The book is a source of primordial wisdom, boundless serenity, and transcendent signal

P.S. my encounter with it completely redefined what I considered language to be capable of communicating and distilling - inexpressible, ineffable experience... divine poetry

[sph]

I am just another western poser that has sought peace of mind reading Eastern philosophy. I am no expert.

[galaxyLogic]

The irony is that there's so much doctrine about Buddhism, Zen, Tao. Yet reading all those books and "becoming an expert" is probably not what zen is about.

[Der_Einzige]

After watching how much the east misunderstands western religion (i.e. Neon Genesis Evangelion), there's no benefit to "actually understanding" the religions of the east. They make little effort to understand western religion in their popular media, so why should we do it for them? As far as I'm concerned, Lisa Simpson is the quintessential Buddhist and will remain that way until Japan proves they understand what the trinity actually is.

[DubiousPusher]

Because there is more value in understanding someone else's ideas than as some kind of cultural favor? East Asians built empires, invented and discovered incredible things. They have developed elaborate artistic, musical and familial traditions. All of that is of course related to their cosmological ideas. If you could, why wouldn't you understand ideas that were integral to so much human activity? And if they fail to understand your culture in the same regard, that just puts you at an advantage.

In the words of my old man, "I'm not telling you what I know, cause then you'll know what I know plus what you know and then you'll know more than me!"

[sph]

“Here is my opinion on philosophies and religions spanning thousand of years based on a Japanese anime: the anime got some things wrong so I might as well ignore all of it”

Fascinating insight. Thank you for your input, I guess.

[antonvs]

> until Japan proves they understand what the trinity actually is.

By design, it’s impossible to understand what the Trinity actually is. Baffling with bullshit is a longstanding religious tradition.

[jack_pp]

Saint Serafim Rose has books on Taoism being mostly compatible with Orthodox Christianity fwiw.

[nixon_why69]

Being proud of not knowing stuff is a bad look.