[tovej]

Zionist does have a specific meaning. It means you think the Jewish people have a god-given right to the Palestinian land, and that other creeds and ethnicities should be second class within the Jewish state in Palestine.

A non-zionist Israel would be one where all peoples had the same right, e.g.

[UltraSane]

"It means you think the Jewish people have a god-given right to the Palestinian land"

It was never actually Palastinian land. It was Jewish land, then Roman land, then Ottoman land, then British land, then Jewish land after Palastinians attacked Israel and lost. At no point were the Palastinians ever a sovereign country and in fact they incredibly foolishly rejected the UN offer for one.

"other creeds and ethnicities should be second class "

Approximately 2.5 to 2.6 million non-Jews live in Israel, comprising about 25% to 26% of the country's total population. This is compared to less than 1% of the population of Gaza being non-muslim.

[tovej]

Ok, well, you seem to be a Zionist. And not very educated on the matter (or willfully misrepresenting things).

The Palestinians are the people who lived there. The Zionists expelled half of them and razed 500 villages to the ground in 1948. It was an ethnic cleansing. They denied them the right to return.

There was a Palestinian identity and there was a Palestinian society. They revolted against the Ottomans, and the British promised them sovereignty. The British betrayed them and caved to the Zionists, and the rest is settler colonialism and apartheid.

[FireBeyond]

> And not very educated on the matter (or willfully misrepresenting things).

Right, like stomping around the comments claiming that anything less than pretending Israel didn't set foot in Gaza between 2025 and October 7, 2023 is filthy Hamas propaganda, the existence of at least six formally named IDF operations being just a pesky bit of reality that can be easily run over by a Merkava Mk V main battle tank.

[UltraSane]

What do you think that proves? It only proves how pointlessly violent Hamas is.

[FireBeyond]

Maybe it will stop you from yelling at people that they are liars when they say anything about Israel being in Gaza?

Or, who am I kidding, of course it won't.

[UltraSane]

IDF actions in response to Hamas attacks are not the same as permanent occupation of Gaza. Israel left Gaza in 2005 and Hamas has been in power ever since and has gleefully killed any Palestinians opposing them.

[UltraSane]

I'm not a zionist I think the Palastinians were fools to refuse the UN offer of their own country and attack Israel. If they had won they would have expelled all Jews. They could have had their own sovereign Nation for 78 years now.

Just for comparison after Germany lost WW2 they lost 25% of their land and 14 million German living on it were expelled. Has Germany spent the last 78 years trying to get it back? No. Instead they have been doing the smarter option which is creating a peaceful and rich country, which is what the Palastinians should have done.

[tovej]

You're not a Zionist, but you then proceed to make a Zionist argument?

The Palestinians were the only people living on the land before the settlers came. That included Jews and Christians, because Palestinians are not a homogeneous group.

The Zionist settlers are not indigenous, they had no right to settle there. They also took the UN resolution and just started a war where they razed 500 villages. I'm sure if the Palestinian side had won, they would have expelled the settlers. But that is only natural. And beside the point, because the Palestinians didn't start the war, and of course uou expel invaders.

[UltraSane]

"The Palestinians were the only people living on the land before the settlers came"

And native americans were living in Canada, US, and Mexico before settlers came. The Palestinians are hardly unique in losing land in a war. In fact this is basically the norm in human history. What is almost unique is how Palestinians have made their lives much much worse pathetically trying to get the land back when they have absolutely no chance of doing so, anymore than Native Americans do.

The jews living in Israel in 2026 are indigenous in the sense they are NOT leaving so any scenario where they do is a stupid fantasy. the Palestinians DID start the war, they rejected their own sovereign state in favor of gambling for everything and lost. But they have spent 78 years just refusing to accept reality while Israel has grown rich and powerful.

[tovej]

The Palestinians did not start the war. Israel has started every war against the Palestinians, including the 1948 one.

Israelis are not indigenous (there are rare exceptions of Mizrahis or Jerusalem Palestinians with some form of citizenship), they are colonists.

[throw37832]

There are more Muslims living happily in Israel than Jews in all Muslim countries combined.

More specifically there are 0 Jews living in areas under control of the Palestinian Authority, or in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Yemen.

[tmule]

Illogical collectivist blather suggesting that therefore, Muslims should be treated as a collective, and deprived of rights in Israel? Also, what’s with the “happily”?

[UltraSane]

No, it just points out how hypocritical Muslims are being.

[tmule]

Hypocrisy is an individual quality, not a collective quality, Zio!

[UltraSane]

"Zio"

Thank you for providing a perfect example of how the word zionist has become a replacement for kike among jew-haters.

[tmule]

Common term for about 75% of democrats under 50, who must be Jew-haters, of course. Sorry, ethnonationalism just isn’t a popular ideology, and the word is, in practice, just a shorthand for an instance of that. You’ve lapped up hasbarist propaganda to such an extent that it’s started to be reality.

[tovej]

That is just a blatant lie? There are Jews living in all those places. Not that many perhaps, but they exist.

And it's not really about religion. It's about Palestinians specifically, who are indigenous to Palestine, and are under Israeli apartheid.

The Palestinians who have been exiled by Israel, and their children, cannot live where their grandparents lived (even though they should have a right to return, under UN resolutions that Israel has accepted), but any Jew from, let's say Brooklyn, does.

Also, Islam is the only faith in Israel which is not allowed to self-organize. It is singled out among all religious communities as the only one who is not given this right. Which is of course incredibly discriminatory.

[UltraSane]

There are a lot less Jews living in Muslim countries after Israel was created than before. 800,000 were expelled and mostly moved to Israel. You don't hear them whining for the right to return.

There isn't a single jew living in Gaza. Why is that?

It is very much about religion. Hamas is an explicitly Islamic supremacist organization that calls for the destruction of Israel as a religious obligation.

[tovej]

What do you mean there isn't a single jew living in Gaza? How is that relevant? That is entirely beside the point.

If you had the option to live as a full citizen in Israel, being told you're part of the dominant ethnicity that's treated as human beings; or staying in Gaza, where you are being bombed to death by the IDF, I wonder which you would choose?

Your argument is essentially stating the conditions of apartheid as negative for dominant ethnic group. I didn't know someone could be so divorced from reality.

[UltraSane]

Between apartheid and genocide Hamas supporters really love using words wrong.

[tovej]

Where's the Hamas supporter?