[ArmadilloGang]

My family is looking at Missouri to Spain.

Why Spain: Expat communities, cost of living, friendly visa options, beautiful climate.

Why leave: Sick of U.S. politics and the way it directly and indirectly affects us and how difficult it is to escape from it - it’s a major point of conversations with family and friends, it’s on the local radio, local subreddit, local social media pages, etc.

Also, I have over $7k in personal medical costs annually (out of pocket). That’s just me, not my family cumulatively. For Ostomy supplies, iron infusions, and more.

[rbtprograms]

americans pretending they aren't immigrants by using the term expat always cracks me up

[jandrewrogers]

The terms "expat" and "immigrant" are not synonyms. There is a material semantic distinction in American English.

Most Americans that live overseas tend to be expats rather than immigrants. Those two terms don't convey the same meaning.

[rbtprograms]

whatever makes Americans feel better about being immigrants or migrant workers is fine by me

[whatshisface]

Expats have to pay taxes in their home country. The US is very difficult to temporarily not be in.

[AlexeyBelov]

It's not fine by you, since you brought attention to it.

[kelvinjps10]

a person who temporarily or permanently lives and works in a country other than their native country. I mean, some Mexicans and other latin americans go to the US to make money and buy a home back in their countries. And still by they're not called expats?

[schnitzelstoat]

For me, expat implies a temporary stay, often tied to your job.

[shermantanktop]

I guess I think of "expat" as a possibly-temporary state where full assimilation is not the goal. American expats also pay American taxes unless they give up US citizenship.

Technically of course you are right.

[adev_]

> American expats also pay American taxes unless they give up US citizenship.

Practically, they barely pay anything significant.

The lower net salary in Europe / Asia associated with rather high local tax means that most Americans citizens oversea barely own anything significant back to the state.

However it does remain an annoyance to fill the tax declaration every year: I know several American who chose to give up their citizenahip just to avoid this specific issue.

[eblume]

I'm not sure I follow. I am a US citizen and have never lived abroad, but my understanding is that US Citizens living abroad must still pay the US a full federal income tax. It's graduated/progressive, of course, so the actual percentage may vary, but it should probably be between 15% and 40% of income. Not what I would call small. I don't think they can deduct local taxes, can they?

[bnm04]

Many countries have tax treaties with the US, and there’s also the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE), which excludes up to 132.9k of foreign income; so many US citizens abroad will indeed pay no US income taxes.

[jandrewrogers]

That is mostly only true if you have no significant investments. If you have investments, the tax situation is not good as an American even under tax treaties.

If you are normal wage slave with limited savings then yes the exclusions mostly work.

[Rudybega]

There's a huge exclusion.

The 2026 Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE) allows qualifying U.S. expats to exclude up to $132,900 of foreign-earned income from their U.S. federal income taxes. Married couples can exclude up to $265,800 if both spouses work abroad and each meets the eligibility requirements.

[eblume]

Thanks! I did not know that. That changes a lot.

[anjel]

americans pretending they aren't refugees by using the term expat is almost too ironic.

[jjtheblunt]

if you're living where you were born, how can you be an expat?

[simojo]

From what I understand, Spain has their own set of politics worth losing sleep over; perhaps as an expat you won't be as attached though.

[crystal_revenge]

Most American ex-pats don't really understand that the thing that makes ex-pat life so attractive is that, for most of people's lives, being American in a foreign country has traditionally conferred a wide range of benefits (this is most clearly exemplified by the way Americans living in a foreign country refer to themselves as "ex-pats" not "immigrants"). The ex-pat solution assumes American exceptionalism as its foundation.

Historically Americans have benefited from income asymmetry and a fairly wide-spread desire by foreign nations not to cause too much legal trouble for US nationals abroad.

I have quite a few friends that do live, quite happily, abroad. But the common pattern for them is a.) fluency in the native language b.) historical association with the country c.) fairly large cash reserves so they can ignore any economic problems these countries are facing.

[jorblumesea]

expat is usually synonymous with fire/retire early. most people move to spain or portugal and see their purchasing power multiply.

[Xixi]

That sounds more like FIRE / geographic arbitrage than expat in the traditional sense.

What people often mean by a "true expat" is something completely different: someone sent abroad by their employer, usually with a generous expatriate package (home-country salary, local allowances, housing, private schooling for children, etc.)

More broadly, though, expatriate simply means someone living outside their native country. Ex means "out of", and patria means "native country" or "homeland". It's that simple.

So the word itself isn't limited to wealthy retirees or corporate transfers. All immigrants are expatriates, although not every expatriate is necessarily an immigrant.

[titanomachy]

Americans didn’t invent the term or the concept of “expat”, colonial Europeans have been doing it in Africa and Asia for centuries.

[tbrownaw]

I don't see the parent comment saying that we did invent it.

[Quekid5]

*Brits

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, my European nation did a lot of bad shit, but don't put the idea of an "expat" on us.

[titanomachy]

A million French moved to Algeria

[Aurornis]

Most places have their own politics. What differs is how often they come up. As a foreigner you're usually spared the involvement in those discussions because people think you're not interested and don't want your outsider opinion anyway.

People also embed themselves in different communities when they move anywhere, even to a different city or state in the same country. It's a clean reset.

It doesn't always last forever. I know several people who tried to move somewhere, including internationally, when politics got heated in 2016. Most of them came back eventually with a realization that politics is everywhere, it's just a matter of how much you're embedded into the places it's discussed.

[rwyinuse]

Politics is everywhere, but the state of US politics today is exceptionally bad by Western world standards. I hate the government in my country, but their corruption and incompetence is nothing compared to the Trump administration.

In that sense most EU countries are a positive upgrade.

[homerowilson]

I (American) worked in Spain (Cáceres, Extremadura) ~2015-2017 in tech. It was a wonderful experience. Extremely talented, hard-working, and friendly co-workers. Great health-care and education systems. I think since then rising housing prices partially due to migration have become an issue, but it's a really, really nice place.

[pvaldes]

To add context Extremadura is a member of the "poor" Spain. To US people could be useful to think on a sort of New Mexico.

Pros: Great food, interesting cultural past, only one language to deal with and not complicated accents to grasp (more important that most people think), gorgeous wild areas, uncomplicated people, maybe a little on the introverted side at first, but solid gold after a while.

Cons: Risk of poverty sadly high, bigger than many US states (but with better government support and healthcare). Harsh continental climate very hot and very cold. Not for everybody (but US has plenty of places with similar or worse weather). The trains and communication roads are also under-average for the country and many people don't really speak English.

In many of the non highly touristic places you can live well if you can adapt to the cons. Housing prices are lower, life expenses cheaper and buying a house should be affordable with a decent job (Don't try this in Barcelona or Madrid). Portugal is close, and is even cheaper, to the point of some people living there and working in Spain. To support the same standard of living in Barcelona, Valencia or Madrid you need to plan in advance, to stomach the stress that unavoidably come with big cities, and earn much more.

In Spain if you can speak English well you will be automatically seen as a great researcher.

[hylaride]

More pro: Spain may be one of the best places in Europe to raise kids (culturally, especially), though a good chunk of the country has emptied out of its young people - so it can vary by region. It's a shame that their birth rate has gotten so low. Crime overall is very low, especially if you're not tied directly to it.

More cons: You will eventually have to shift to a very different customer service climate and hours. The development levels can vary quite a bit, especially "modern" infrastructure like internet outside of the major cities (maybe that's gotten better in the last 5 years). Bureaucracy of some institutions (government/finance) can be extremely frustrating.

[KAMSPioneer]

Regarding internet infrastructure, the fiber optic network seems to be quite robust these days. There are still places where it isn't available, but compared to e.g. the US it's another world entirely. Even small cities typically offer 1 or sometimes 10 Gbps hookups in many areas.

Regarding bureaucracy I'm afraid that there has been no such progress. Extremely frustrating that even when I do everything right, I get told to come back another day for my trámite because they just...haven't done it! Sorry!

[KAMSPioneer]

Also American, and I'm interested why you praise the education system. I have a child who will be entering the Andalusian system at some point and although it seems better than my Oklahoman system, that is, uh...damning with faint praise.

Some of my non-Spanish European colleagues also have commented that the education system is kind of "good not great" especially compared with other Western/Central European countries. However, I understand the Spanish system to be somewhat federated; perhaps the difference between Extremadura and Andalusia would explain the difference in opinion.

[com2kid]

America just ended a nearly 2 decade experience of failing to teach kids how to read English due to a NZ teacher scamming the English speaking world.

So doing better than that isn't too hard.

[turtlesdown11]

and we've already moved on to the next snake oil - letting LLMs teach our kids!

[dnautics]

gotta be ready for the crazy heat in the summers, they don't call it extremadura for nothing. unironically best lodging is rooms that were dungeons in the castle.

[WarmWash]

Apart from being the nexus of the current hot button issue - immigrants and housing costs.

[geerlingguy]

"The grass is always greener", "the enemy you know", etc. etc.

[saturn8601]

Man Spain is mentioned as a top destination with expat influencers, youtubers and now even on hn. I get the feeling that something is going to crack at some point. You must be pricing out locals and they can't be happy about that.

[thorin]

Spain is a pretty big country in terms of space. It's been full of British expats for years a lot of whom had to leave due to Brexit so can probably stand to have a few more influencers move over.

[indoorfish]

Sounds like the locals are just racist then?

[megous]

Being a rich fuck used to 5x+ the local median income is not a "race". So it can't be racism.

[AnimalMuppet]

I suspect that indoorfish's point is that, in the US, when similar situations happen, and get similar reactions, then accusations of racism fly.

[jasonfarnon]

people in the US complaining about gentrification get called racist?

[defrost]

People in the US stating that black lives matter get called racist. So, yes.

[sailfast]

No, not generally.

That said, there can be some "Oh yeah - well if you're insinuating that white people are displacing black people then YOU are the racist" which is just... not the same thing. One view of the world may incorporate a significant accommodation and acknowledgement of historical discrimination, enslavement, red-lining, you name it. The other is... technically correct I suppose, but complete horseshit on the merits until we start to see significant, systemic harm going the other direction as a result of race.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.

[pvaldes]

Spain has its own load of problems, like any other place. Big cities have lowered their quality of life a lot since the 2008 crisis.

Science is massively underfunded respect to what US was enjoying. Expect cuts in your salary. Physicians earn much, much, less, but students can follow public university studies without being put a crushing debt load around their necks.

Science is also being invaded lately with political and bureaucratic BS. Universities have less resources and are always scammed in the ranks that benefit Asian and US universities.

We expect one month of Holidays each year, by law, or to be compensated for it if we agree to spend this time working. Most researchers volunteer to work extra hours or weekends if needed to finish the experiments.

About cultural differences. There are not "white" people and "hispanic" people in Spain. Is either the same thing, or it does not really matter.

"Negro" means "black", and is just a color. Some people are racist, specially out of the big cities, and even more are classist, but if you are black and people describe you as a man negro or a woman negra they don't mean to insult you, they are just describing you. There is not such ridiculous term as an "Afro-spanish", if you have born in Spain or earned the nationality, you are as much 100% Spanish, as any other.

In fact, you are either Spanish, or foreign. If you learn the language well you "are honorary Spanish". If not, you will be always be the "Moroccan" or the "Gringo", but not the "black" or the "white". Europeans had mixed their bloods for ages and people here consider themselves as much "white" than you (if not more) and will find the distinction offensive by unnecessary.

As long as you act as a reasonably civilized person, only the extreme right idiots will care about your tan. Avoid this European MAGA like the dangerous plague that they are.

In restaurants, you need to call the waiter and say what you want. If you want the bill, you need to ask politely for the bill. Don't wait to be noticed or you will wait forever. You will not be chased off the table normally, that would be rude.

You will receive the amount of food expected traditionally in the area (not the humongous portions normal in US unless you visit the North).

Tips are fully voluntary. Unless you go to a very exclusive place you should tip between 0 and 2 dollars and don't need to argue why. (Forget about that X% of the service. We hate going out and being forced to do math).

People will benefit also of the environmental regulation. I assume that a big chunk of the morbid obesity epidemics in US came from unregulated contamination.

To end, a couple warnings, specific from the country:

In small populations near mountains and forests, wildfire crime is a recurrent problem. If there are cows or sheep roaming wild in the area, expect wildfire mafias. Assure to remove any flammable materials near your house and to have an escape route plan.

Dry riverbeds are dangerous. Engrave this in your brain. Locals use this places as parkings, but will run to remove the cars if there is rain expected. You shouldn't park in this areas, never, ever, try to cross a current of water or rescue your parked car if there is water, and should avoid buying any property in this areas. The place is called Rioseco for a motive. Each year a few expatriates die in the Mediterranean caught by flash floods.

[lbrito]

Housing is really expensive in Spain and Portugal right now. I live in BC and mid/small cities there are actually more expensive than here

[asdff]

https://old.reddit.com/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer/comments/1thk1bn...

Cheaper than 120k?

[lbrito]

Sure, you can find something with various budgets. As other said, that house is far away from the city centre (the reddit OP says so in the thread). You'll also probably need to spend a lot on upkeep and retrofits with buildings this old.

Something in the city centre is more like 4800 euro/sqmt (https://www.idealista.com/sala-de-prensa/informes-precio-viv...).

Just browse idealista in the city you want and you'll see its not such a bargain as people might think. Mid-sized cities I've checked (Vigo, Valencia, Granada) all have similar prices, around 400k for a 2-3 bed older apartment, or twice as much for a newer one.

[asdff]

Who cares if it is outside the city center? Looks like it is plenty urban. Even better, more real businesses priced towards locals paying 120k for an entire building, and no seasonal tourist businesses taking up space in the market priced for whoever can afford a four figure vacation to Valencia. Besides, OP said it was 20 mins by car to the city center. That seems perfectly reasonable in the american frame of reference towards distances to points of interest. The place looks turnkey too. Unfinished attic is pretty typical even in the US.

[lbrito]

If it looks like a good deal to you, by all means, hasta luego. I was just saying that specific Reddit post is not really a good average case for housing. Check idealista and see the average homes there first.

[schnitzelstoat]

That must be outside of Valencia city at that price. And anywhere near Madrid or Barcelona (where most of the good jobs are), forget it.

It'll be 350k for a 100m2 apartment or even more expensive in the popular neighbourhoods.

[asdff]

Op said it's 20 mins by car to the city center.

[lbrito]

That is far by European standards. Op is Spanish.

[asdff]

20 minutes is 20 minutes whether you are american or spanish.

[tick_tock_tick]

> Why leave: Sick of U.S. politics and the way it directly and indirectly affects us and how difficult it is to escape from it - it’s a major point of conversations with family and friends, it’s on the local radio, local subreddit, local social media pages, etc.

I mean so you'll move to Spain and just be horrible ignorant of any issues facing the local population, living in a financial bubble where you've earned significantly move then the them and can ignore any political issues locally.

Sure it's "freeing" to just move and stop caring about "politics" and use money to smooth over or move again if anything slightly bothers you.

[noisy_boy]

What are you talking about? They will move to Spain and be financially well off means they will be ignorant of local issues and live in a bubble? How did you make that stretch? Sure they may not be very political but that doesn't equate to living in a bubble. People choose to engage with politics at varying degrees, as is their right.

Isn't it enough to not having to look over your shoulder fearing you will be a statistic in the long list of atrocities being committed by this government? Having a good quality of life is something to be guilty about?!