[jondlm]

This... this... this! This resonates soooo deeply with me.

The wild thing is that these tech "systems" (aka companies) are made up of ostensibly good people. It's often impossible to look at individual people and say, "they're the cause of this damage." I believe that some form of evil (this word feel inadequate) emerges amidst these large systems that is incredibly hard to pinpoint. It's why dissension is so fucking critical. Tech companies continue to profit from the status quo and we need courageous people who disrupt that.

[autoexec]

> The wild thing is that these tech "systems" (aka companies) are made up of ostensibly good people.

I don't think that's the case. The people running these companies certainly aren't good people and everyone else in any position of power is either happy to hurt anyone and anything in exchange for a paycheck, or they're willing to take the money and turn a blind eye to the things they know are wrong. It's difficult to know where people stop being complicit. The amazon warehouse employee who is forced to piss in bottles or wear diapers to keep their job isn't really the problem, and I'm sure many of them hate the company they work for, but the company only works because of their efforts.

[jondlm]

I did say "ostensibly" ;)

Agreed that power nearly always corrupts. It does so in often subtle and slow shifts. In general we have a paucity of leaders who wield their power on behalf of the oppressed.

The truth is that the "bad" leaders need powerful help. They need someone to come alongside them and love them into the light of the damage they've caused by drifting into complacency. And I'm not talking about "nice" love here, it might initially look more like shame.

[omnimus]

> “The people running these companies certainly aren't good people”

That is an heavy understatement. After reading some biographies and books about the tech elite… it's just much weirder and sickly than i ever imagined. Strange cults, religions and beliefs. Surprisingly high stupidity mixed with intense hate of humans. Straight up anti-social anti-human behaviour… and drugs, so much drugs that lead to psychosis. Narcissism and superiority… you would have hard time finding anyone moderately nice to hang out with. It's a real curse that the system pushes up people like this.

[jondlm]

You're not wrong. I also think it's a trap to think they're in a fundamentally different category than we are. Yes, the blast radius of their harm can be enormous. _And_ they're humans like you and me. Likely hiding deep wounds of their own that are screaming for care-full attention.

[omnimus]

Oh I agree. System that puts people like this in power also doesn't allow for them to really get help. Nobody should have this kind of power.

[jimbokun]

Most currently poor people would have the exact same failings if they suddenly found themselves with vast power.

One of the most important political developments in history was the realization that you can’t just replace a bad king with a good king. They all eventually go bad. Instead you need checks and balances to distribute power and make sure it’s not concentrated in only a few hands.

[jimbokun]

Too many tech people only focus on developing enhanced capabilities and find philosophy, let alone moral systems like religion, useless or absurd.

But with powerful AI models the philosophical and moral and religious questions have become impossible to ignore.

[danny_codes]

I work for a company I know is bad for society. Capitalism is really good at getting people to work at cross-purpose to the common interest. It's one of the better forms of coercion that has been devised, because it floats the tantalizing promise that you too can join in on the exploitation. And better, you don't need permission like in class-based societies: you just collect enough currency and you're in.

[watwut]

I think that CEOs of those companies are ethically challenged people, narcissists and sociopaths.

They are not evil and there is no evil emerging in big systems. It is that in the above have advantage in winner takes all economy and use that advantage to gain more advantages. So they end up on top. And once they are high enough, law dont apply to them. Which makes them go even higher.

[jondlm]

> I think that CEOs of those companies are ethically challenged people, narcissists and sociopaths.

Likely true in many cases!

> there is no evil emerging in big systems

That's a very definitive statement!

What brings you to the conclusion that there aren't forces at play that we don't yet have a good name for or don't yet have the scientific means to study?

[jimbokun]

The vast majority of people suddenly become ethically challenged narcissists and sociopaths if given too much power.

[watwut]

You dont become narcissists nor sociopath by getting power. Narcissists and sociopaths are more likely to seek power. And in current society, they are more likely to actually get it. But, they were like that from the start. Look at current CEOs - you can see those traits in them their whole known career.

Likewise with ethically challenged. They are more likely to become rich.

If you are not narcissists nor sociopath and gain power, you will be out of touch, you may become arrogant due to having less pushback in life. But, you wont become sociopath nor narcissist, if you cared about other people you will still have that in you.