[bluGill]

Their existence was even more precarious because they were one crop failure from starvation. They couldn't save food for long, and even if they tried an army is likely to come and take it all (if mice didn't get it first).

Dept is bad, but it isn't nearly as bad as the things they dealt with.

[datadrivenangel]

Modern civilization is ~2-3 years of correlated bad harvests away from major disaster. If food costs 20x what it used to, a good number of people will starve or die in the political turbulence that will follow...

[bluGill]

Modern society has much better transportation. The odds of correlated bad harvests around the world are much worse than local bad harvest in the past. I guarantee every place on earth will have a bad harvest, sometimes two in the next 20 years, but since there is enough harvest overall we are fine.

[marcosdumay]

> ~2-3 years of correlated bad harvests

Yes, but that's quite an event. The odds are better that a major disaster causes those worldwide correlated bad harvests than the other way around.

[zoomerwaffen]

Sounds like France circa 1790.

[mothballed]

Most people worry more about what they'll do if they survive than what they'll do if they die to the point I don't think "what if we all die" even barely registers in the calculation of whether to have kids. IF you all starve it's all a moot point. In even an African village everyone who wanted a house could just build it on the copious land available with whatever materials you could find-- I would assert having a home is more precarious now than even medieval or even pre-historic times as the regulations and law will banish you to the street today if you just build whatever you can afford to build as was done in practically all times before.

I don't spend much time worrying about what I'll do for my kids if the nuclear apocalypse happens. I would still have kids if it was 90% chance of the apocolypse, whereas I'd probably not have kids if there were a 30% chance I make just enough to survive but not so much I can pay child support and I sit in a jail cell while everyone around me does nothing but rags on me for being a deadbeat and failure of a father.

Note: Also, except for the first few years, having kids made your situation less rather than more precarious in the agrarian age

[doctorwho42]

Umm, have you ever heard of pickling? Root cellars? Canning?

I hate this fake idea that everyone in the past was one bad harvest from starvation.

They could survive a bad harvest every so often, its when the weather changed due to drought/etc. that caused famine.

[decimalenough]

Correct, they were mostly two bad harvests away from starvation. 240,000 people starved to death in Sweden because 1867 was cold and 1868 was dry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_famine_of_1867%E2%80%9...

[mothballed]

Everything about being a male parent was far less precarious, and being a female parent was less precarious after childbirth. There was literally basically no liability if the children died, and not only that, the people around you would likely understand and sympathize with you. You could just make a best effort and if you failed, chalk it up to bad luck and try again. And if you died of starvation, welp your responsibilities in life have ended. That's a lot more inviting to having children than the current status quo.

Society today still doesn't really do dick to help parents but not only that they've built unprecedented apparatus around jailing, ridiculing, condemning, and harassing parents for any perceived weaknesses in their strategy including failing to foresee their financial situation decades into the future.

[bluGill]

While child death was common, there is no reason to think it was somehow less devastating to the families it happened too.

[mothballed]

There is every reason to think legal consequences + misfortune of a child are more devastating than just misfortune of a child. For one, for instance people have had all their children removed when a single child has a fragile bone disease or similar poorly explained illness causing injury or death and CPS accuses the parents of abuse and causes the trauma of not just losing/injury of the child but also losing all your children and possibly being charged. There are cases of people adopting abused children and documenting the prior abuse at time of adoption, but then having their other kids removed when doctors find the signs of the prior documented abuse when the child dies despite the best efforts of the person adopting the child.

I don't know why on earth you would think the trauma of having the legal system + other people attacking you + possibly losing custody of your other kids wouldn't cause more devastation. The whole system is geared around causing additional devastation for families this happens to compared to in prior times.

Maybe the chance of having a child die or an unfixable injured is less than before, but the weight of consequences to consider are higher than before.

[cucumber3732842]

From child mortality to soldiers in combat there is a nearly infinite amount of research indicating that whatever bad things you want to look are less devastating when the the entire society around you says "aw shucks, that happens sometimes, maybe just pray better and try again" rather than "omg that sounds horrible you must be so traumatized, have you tried therapy"

[circlefavshape]

Have you been neglecting to pay your child support?

[jmye]

What a weird take. You make it sound like their dead children were no big deal, but by god, someone not paying for your children for you is a catastrophe.

> And if you died of starvation, welp your responsibilities in life have ended.

Yes, gosh, imagine people making a big deal out of starving to death. At least they didn't owe someone money.

[mothballed]

>ou make it sound like their dead children were no big deal, but by god, someone not paying for your children for you is a catastrophe.

No I'm pointing out American society's fake concern for the welfare of children. They don't punish parents to help children. In fact, it's almost totally crickets when it comes to helping the children. We even spend a gazillion dollars on guided missiles to bomb girls' schools in Iran with barely a fuck given about the children inside. The point is to assert smug moral superiority and to punish, jail, and harass parents not help the children. Society wants all the upside of asserting their opinion on parenting and stomping the boot down on parents but none of the responsibility that goes with the choice to assert your opinion on how children should be raised. Wanting kids raised a certain way while shunting all the responsibility on others at ~no cost to yourself except to punish those who fail to live up to your standards, it's the cheapest and most disingenuous kind of concern but frighteningly actually backed by the precious projection of the "rule of law" that arguably makes children even worse off while also acting as a signal towards inhibiting people to have children since they don't want to subject their every lifestyle choice to the whims of "think of the children" psychopaths that can start a CPS investigation ("we investigate every tip") at the drop of a hat.

> imagine people making a big deal out of starving to death. At least they didn't owe someone money.

I don't think I need to explain why people who have starved to death are able to make less of a "big deal" out of their lot than living people who owe money.

[throw0101c]

> I hate this fake idea that everyone in the past was one bad harvest from starvation.

Perhaps one was/is sometimes a stretch, but starvation and famine were a thing:

> Over two million people died in two famines in France between 1693 and 1710. Both famines were made worse by ongoing wars.[127]

> As late as the 1690s, Scotland experienced famine which reduced the population of parts of Scotland by at least 15%.[128]

> The Great Famine of 1695–1697 may have killed a third of the Finnish population.[129] and roughly 10% of Norway's population.[130]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine#17th_century

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695–1697

But even a single year is not unreasonable:

> The Great Famine, which lasted from 1770 until 1771, killed about one tenth of Czech lands' population, or 250,000 inhabitants, and radicalised countrysides leading to peasant uprisings.[135]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine#18th_century

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Czech_lands

[doctorwho42]

I was never implying famine wasn't a thing, it has toppled empires...

But to say one season of bad harvest will kill off everyone is ludicrous...

[bluGill]

I didn't say it would kill everyone though. I said it would kill you. Your neighbors may get just enough to survive, but not enough to keep you alive. (If they have surplus they would help you survive - with the expectation you would return that favor in 10-20 years when the situation reverses.

[throw0101c]

> But to say one season of bad harvest will kill off everyone is ludicrous...

"Everyone", sure. But the 1770-1 Czech example seems to have taken out 10%: that's not nothing.

[mrguyorama]

The actual way the average farmer throughout history survived through failed harvests was the human way:

Their neighbor helped them

The most important human invention ever was a society built around sharing whenever you could because you knew you would rely on that sharing to survive at some point.