[fweimer]

I'm not convinced this is true. Otherwise, it does not bode well for Rust code because any type safety glitch will be considered a vulnerability. This would be really challenging for Rust developers because it goes beyond unsafe Rust code. You can easily have unexpected panics because your types do not enforce invariants as you expect. If a library has such a bug, is this a denial-of-service vulnerability in the library? Rather than dealing in absolutes, I would say that it's impossible to tell in isolation. If applications do not misuse the library in ways that triggers the panic, probably not, and treating this as a vulnerability just results in pointless noise.

Determining the impact of library bugs can be really hard. For example, some functionality might be so broken that it's simply impossible to use correctly, so a buffer overflow on top does not make a difference. Or a buffer overflow vulnerability triggers consistently during system boot, so that you never get to the login prompt. These can hardly be considered vulnerabilities. On the other hand, we have clear buffer management bugs, where we must expect that there is application code out there which specifies tight buffer bounds and requires that the library stays within that buffer. (Rust should help here, at least out-of-bounds accesses should turn into panics.) But most bugs are unfortunately somewhere in the middle. Tools like Debian Code Search can provide some evidence. But in the end, it's more subjective than I'd like it to be.

On the extreme end, we have compiler soundness bugs. I'm a bit of worried that I'm hitting any of those when I'm tweaking the types until the compiler no longer complains. Beyond the basics, I really don't have a grasp of Rust's type system rules. But I suspect they very difficult to hit by accident, and even if I do, the code must be miscompiled in meaningful, but difficult-to-notice way. All that seems rather unlikely, which is why these bugs aren't treated as vulnerabilities.

I really think we need some corrective factor (such as potential implication impact) when determining whether toolchain bugs are vulnerabilities.

[afdbcreid]

You said

> I'm not convinced this is true.

But it is. It is true that Rust libraries could take this position of "any API misuse causing vulnerability is a CVE" more to the extreme, currently it is applied to memory safety but it could be applied to panics as well. However it is still true that pretty much all Rust libraries treat API misuses that cause UB as a CVE, and pretty much no C/C++ library does that, and that inflates the number of Rust CVEs.

> On the extreme end, we have compiler soundness bugs. I'm a bit of worried that I'm hitting any of those when I'm tweaking the types until the compiler no longer complains. Beyond the basics, I really don't have a grasp of Rust's type system rules. But I suspect they very difficult to hit by accident, and even if I do, the code must be miscompiled in meaningful, but difficult-to-notice way. All that seems rather unlikely, which is why these bugs aren't treated as vulnerabilities.

Rest assured that you are much more likely to hit a miscompilation in your compiler's backend, and that it is much harder to detect.

[tialaramex]

> Rest assured that you are much more likely to hit a miscompilation in your compiler's backend, and that it is much harder to detect.

The LLVM provenance bug is a really nice example. The Rust which tickles this bug (LLVM emits nonsense, claiming that two integers a and b are different but then calculating that a - b == 0...) is fairly clear, you wouldn't write it by accident but it's obvious what it should do, and unsettling to discover that the bug isn't in Rust's compiler frontend but in LLVM.

You can write equivalent C or C++ to show the bug with Clang - but when you try to write it you'll struggle, not to reproduce the bug per se, but to stop writing Undefined Behaviour, which invalidates your bug report because the LLVM devs will say "This is UB, working as intended". The non-UB reproducers are much more elaborate than the safe Rust was.

[bannable]

What is the "LLVM provenance bug"?

[tialaramex]

https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/45725

Are you familiar with pointer provenance ? This gets very deep, very fast, so if you don't know and don't want to know I can't help you, but if you do want to know try maybe: https://www.ralfj.de/blog/2018/07/24/pointers-and-bytes.html

So e.g. if we make a pointer to thing A, which we then destroy, and then for a pointer to thing B, and then we compare these pointers, even if the address which will be the only bits making up this pointer in hardware was identical, a language could choose to say these pointers are not the same (Rust says they compare equal but that's up to Rust). LLVM is equipped to do this optimisation. So far, not a bug, though perhaps not what you expected...

However everybody is pretty sure that we don't want provenance for other value types. It's troublesome for pointers but we're used to it and it unlocks important optimisations, but for every other value type it's just extra trouble. So Rust's provenance model says only pointers have provenance, and proposals for C and C++ likewise. If we ask for the address from a pointer, making it into just an integer, it should not longer have provenance.

But, LLVM doesn't really track whether a value "is" pointer or not per se, so it ends up applying that "they're not equal" optimisation to the integers we've made from pointers, even though the integers are definitely equal and we're about to do a subtraction to prove it. Bang.

[dralley]

>Otherwise, it does not bode well for Rust code because any type safety glitch will be considered a vulnerability.

I mean, this is basically true. And it goes beyond type safety - there have been CVEs filed against the Rust stdlib for TOCTOU problems of a kind that the C++ stdlib is absolutely replete with (often the exact same ones in the exact same places, to the extent that comparable APIs exist) which ended up being fixed quickly in Rust and largely ignored in C++, if anyone bothered to file in the first place.

For sure does create headaches for those who need to categorize CVEs by impact, but on balance I don't think it's a bad thing for the ecosystem. Creating a culture that wants to fix soundness issues rather than mark them as WONTFIX with a line of documentation is a core principle and value proposition of Rust in the first place.

Quoting https://cor3ntin.github.io/posts/safety/

> But the borrow checker is not what makes Rust safe. Rust is safe because it decides to put correctness first by default.

> Rust is safe by culture.

Better to pay a penny to fix it today than a pound to deal with the fallout down the line.