[mrcharles]

Does the game make you feel? Then it has artistic value.

I felt something playing this game. It has surprisingly good ambiance and seeing a bunch of pixel characters who have accepted their fate and were waiting for death, to me, gave it a level of emotional attachment I did not expect after I read the tag 'advergame'.

One thing you have to realize is that it's very hard to make games nowadays without some kind of income. If you are lucky, you only have to slum it for a few years and then you make a hit on the side. But more often, you have to do whatever it takes, unless you are willing to keep your day job.

I actually still agree with the Bill Hicks quote, but I feel there is some wiggle room when what is produced is actually a game, and in the end, does not fit the constraint of standard advertising.

IMO if more advertising were like this, the world would be a better place, and Bill Hicks would have been less angry.

And here I will quote Tool's Eulogy, which was about Bill Hicks, if you didn't know:

"He had a voice so strong and loud and I Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so Eager to identify with Someone above the ground, Someone who seemed to feel the same, Someone prepared to lead the way, with Someone who would die for me."

Just because a voice is loud and you agree with it, doesn't necessarily mean that it is entirely correct. I love the shit out of Bill Hicks and I still feel the world would be a better place if he had lived long enough to foster the change he felt he needed. But I still don't feel his quote applies to this game.

[d23]

Tool's "Eulogy" wasn't about Bill Hicks. They actually quite liked the guy, put his face in their albums, and quoted him frequently in a positive light.

Regardless, I agree with your points. It's not always bad to sell something if you want to get the rest of your works heard. It's all a big game, and most people have to play to some degree to be able to do what they love.

[ontheotherhand]

"It's all a big game, and most people have to play to some degree to be able to do what they love."

Sure.. but then don't go mixing those two things up. There is work (entertainment or otherwise), and there is art. That some people cry unfair because they want their pie and eat it isn't really my concern.

I didn't argue that the game creator is somehow evil, I just actually feel my brain hurting from dumbness intruding when I read people talk about "artistical merit" in the context of this "game" (the gameplay mechanics are a bit limited to call it that, but that's a whole other can of worms). The response to that? "Yeah, but" and downmoderation. Oh well, oh lol. What else is new.

[mrcharles]

Despite being wrong, I always interpreted Eulogy to being mostly positive, with an undercurrent of anger that was aimed mostly at his untimely death than anything else.

[tonetheman]

Yes yes yes. One hundred times yes. Not sure what it was but the whole experience was great. The combo of the music and graphics felt like art.

[ontheotherhand]

Well, there's many ways to mean the word "art" or "artist", aren't there. Of course something that is skillfully crafted is art "on some level".

On another, the motivation and goal of the creation, at least to me, outweighs such considerations by order of magnitude. And on that level I don't consider that, or much anything really, "art" by any stretch of my imagination.

Which means yes, I would consider the exact same thing art or not art depending on by whom, why and how it was created and presented.

That may not be fair, but it's my firm opinion anyway. Yeah yeah, people gotta eat. I know that. (I do think that technically even that is a decision, but I'll accept that in this in context.) But what people do NOT "absolutely have to" is to consider themselves as artists, or to be considered by me as such. They'll have to settle with mediocre.

[atacrawl]

And here I will quote Tool's Eulogy, which was about Bill Hicks, if you didn't know:

Eulogy was about L. Ron Hubbard.

[Myrmornis]

I also always thought Eulogy was supposed to be about Bill Hicks but it always confused me that it sounded so critical. Thanks for the correction.

[mrcharles]

Interesting, I had always thought that since the album was dedicated to him, that Eulogy was also related. It works either way, really.