[reg_dunlop]

It's possible to work for an employer, and not have to compromise your values and or professional integrity.

The attitude suggested by your response suggests you haven't lived that reality yet.

Either way, I'd rather be rejected by an employer for speaking my truth, than lie to be somewhere I'd rather not be.

[pesus]

This a very condescending and privileged comment. The job market is much different when you're just starting out, and it's especially brutal these days for new grads.

[satisfice]

Maybe it’s condescending, but it’s valid. I have made sacrifices throughout my career to maintain maximum integrity, and the least I can do is be proud of it, since I don’t have riches or possessions to be proud of.

Yeah I rage quit my job 27 years ago and have been a struggling honest consultant ever since. Clients who want actual solutions to their problems come to me. Does that sound arrogant? Well I also have no savings and don’t own a house.

I don’t regret most of my choices, but I am aware that if somebody paid me enough money I would walk away from my principles. It would have to be a LOT of money.

[pipes]

The "you don't know what it's like for me" argument swings both ways.

[d_silin]

It is not. I made that choice in the past and will do it again.

"Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes"

[dspillett]

>* I made that choice in the past*

You were replying to “The job market is much different when you're just starting out”. The past is not now, and you are not just starting out, so your comparison of their position and yours is invalid IMO.

> and will do it again.

Good for you for sticking to your guns, I'm about to do the same with a company that has all but said “dig into AI or get left behind”¹, but those starting out as freshly minted grads likely do not have the luxuries that we might have² and the jobs market is freakishly competitive for them right now³ in a way that I don't think it ever has been before.

--------

[1] time will tell if I leave of my own volition before getting kicked!

[2] experience (both actual experience and experience “talking the talk”) to help getting the next gig, a mortgage paid off so making ends meet is easier, etc.

[3] It had been heading that way for a while, the recent explosion of GenAI+agnetics has made it worse.

[plandis]

You’ve actively made the choice to go hungry instead of hedging your answers during an interview?

I certainly feigned enthusiasm when I was in high school to get an after school job in order to help my family buy food.

[d_silin]

Yes.

[plandis]

I honestly find that quite hard to believe.

Lack of adequate calories and nutrition negatively compound. You lose the ability to focus, you increase your medical risk.

I experienced that in my childhood. It’s terrible. I did very poorly academically when I did not have access to food. It’s astonishing to me how fast my academic performance improved after consistently having access to food.

Saying you would rather put yourself at risk instead of hedge your answer on a minor interview question in order to increase your chances of getting a job offer seems like an issue with prioritization.

[d_silin]

Correct. I did it anyway (and yes, it was awful).

[knollimar]

What if the way you use AI isn't particularly important to you? Are you willing to sacrifice employment for a principle you wouldn't draw as a line in the sand?

Sometimes it's okay to say "I don't know" and it's okay to say "I don't care" and it's okay to say "It doesn't matter much to me".

Every interview is corpospeak where you infer the intended meaning of words anyway.

[monkpit]

You should really examine your situation and beliefs if you think this isn’t a privileged position to be in.

[reg_dunlop]

We live in an ecosystem where we (engineers/developers) can promote ourselves and display our skills/acumen/values/professionalism/responsibility in an unequivocal way. Regardless of your experience level.

I bootstrapped myself from poverty to Staff software engineer, past the age of 45.

Is that privileged? Or sheer will and force of effort?

I am not unique. I am an example.

[monkpit]

Privilege, yes. You had the privilege to dedicate time to learning skills required, obtaining an education, probably bias during hiring processes, etc.

Even though your position might be the result of effort on your part, you do have to acknowledge that you’re privileged to be in a position to expend that effort on what you want, instead of something else, like finding fresh water daily, or whatever. It’s not sheer will that you were born in a (even marginally) more favorable environment than others.

The term “privilege” here doesn’t just mean a trust fund nepo baby.

[GlacierFox]

How far could you reduce this down? Do you only clap for malnourished Ethiopian babies that can't find waterthat grow up into full silicon Valley software engineers?

[kakacik]

OK how about some real achievements in life, is raising kids the hard way? Career is but a small portion of QoL and overall achievements as human beings, basically all of us software devs these days live have very above-average incomes although most feel like they are deserved or even not enough. So studying from poverty to software is an achievement and big move, usually, but what specific position afterwards is not that important or impressive, its just a question of a) mental capacity, mostly genetic and b) effort put into work, while not elsewhere.

Ie I increased my salary, doing same job, all 100% perm position, roughly 30x compared to my first fulltime software dev job after university. Who cares? It doesn't mean anything, just an afterthought. I am father of 2 small kids, and trying my best to be a good father and role model, often succeeding, sometimes failing. Its by far the hardest effort of my life, it takes relentless 20-25 years and I see otherwise brilliant folks failing at this hard left and right.

Also I wish folks in IT were a bit more humble and considered other engineering careers, with +- same effort taking to get a degree, and much worse career progress/compensation/freedom to choose one's path. Arrogance is much more rare there.

[hvb2]

Just saying, anyone calling themselves an example is someone I'll ignore (but I'll reply to explain the rationale)

This is the mentality that says that if your company goes bust, you didn't work hard enough. Sometimes effort might be the problem..

No, not everyone can make it from nowhere to staff software engineer. That doesn't mean they're not trying hard enough.

[hypfer]

Hacker news is full of people having given up, building torment nexii and coping/rationalizing _incredibly_ hard.

So while I agree that privilege is certainly a factor, so is what I've just said.

A lot of people here live very cushy lives that cushion them from very pointy thoughts and questions. As someone who too has to live in this world, I'd rather they didn't.

[watwut]

Highly paid enginners hiding behind "I have no choice I would be hungry" are usually just lying to themselves.

And you dont even get these nearly as often from people who work in lower paid positions. Or who are actually making moral tradeoffs that affects their income.

I have seen engineers take paycut or risk it because of this or that moral conviction. Not wanting to lie to customer, refusing job for gambling company, working one day less per week so that he volunteers for biblical something.

Just telling management no or just communicating about your work with ai or lack of it are not even one of those.

[therealdrag0]

Even “unprivileged” people are moral actors that can take their high road at personal cost.

[bluefirebrand]

When I was starting out in my career it was "take the first job offer that comes along or starve/become homeless" so no, sometimes the personal cost would be unreasonably high to expect of anyone

This effectively does mean that I was not a moral actor at the time

[therealdrag0]

Naw that’s cope. You make your choices, own them.

Would you have stolen or murdered to avoid being homeless? Would that have been a morally blameless act?

[monkpit]

What do you think privilege is?

[therealdrag0]

A vague word that can be spun to your own perspective based on a tower of other vague words and personal values.

I don’t think we’re talking about slaves are we?

[KittenInABox]

I think it depends. The people that I know that have made significant sacrifices to live along their morals are usually people who 1) are intensely bitter when others will not sacrifice as much as them; 2) are completely understanding of people who will not sacrifice as much as them or acknowledge that they simply have less to sacrifice than others. For example someone who is willing to live the "dirtbag" lifestyle out of their car to dedicate to their outdoorsman activity who is either bitter others have the relative financial security or feel immensely grateful they have consistently good enough health that allows them to be outdoors with so little resources.

For example I think the decision to stick to certain morals is very hard if someone has a disabled dependent, are disabled themselves, or require consistent access to healthcare. There are different lines for different people of course. Our ire shouldn't go towards individuals who make these decisions but the people in power who force others to be in a position where these decisions need to be made.

[d_silin]

In the end, everyone makes their own choices.

I don't want to preach martyrdom, but I am also offended by people choosing moral bankruptcy when faced with even the slightest hardships.

[tisdadd]

I believe that I must be truthful because of my faith, though I understand people feeling pressure otherwise. I have had to quit places that I found lying to part of the employees before.

It is very sad to me that people do feel that pressure, and how the current job market is.

On topic with the article, I would love to be able to trust AI with more, but have found that I have some useful moments with it, but more because of Internet search not being how it used to be for quality.

[ipaddr]

This isn't a value item for most people. Employer doesn't want ai used great handcoding or employer wants ai used great prompt coding.

My truth is I don't care either way . I get the sense that's the same for parent poster. They just want a job and to say the right thing to get past the hiring filter. Even if I did have a truth its not something I would put above being remote, pay and how a company develops software. I'd rather not have a truth and not have a daily standup.

[ninjalanternshk]

It’s also possible to not really hold that strong an opinion on things. Not everything is a pitched battle where doing what your employer wants means you’ve sacrificed your integrity.

[lazide]

Cite needed - FAANG certainly leaned hard into ‘lie to survive’.

[doctorpangloss]

From far away, it's hard to tell the difference between integrity and anti sociality. Even though I believe "software engineering integrity" exists, you can see how it's hard to tell that apart from "software engineers who stir dramas or are annoying to work with."

[emodendroket]

Everyone can decide where the line is for them, but I do feel like given the subject that's a bit of a hyperbolic repsonse.

[ccppurcell]

The job market being as it is, a lot of people simply don't have that luxury.