[arjie]

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected.

I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my parents are doctors and I was well cared for and nature was good to me as well. So here I am, pretty much fine. I’d rather have not had the disease, all things told. Incredibly contagious disease. I was in the room with the other sick child for only a few moments.

[chasil]

It erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases. It's best not to get it.

[flawn]

What is the evolutionary advantage of this? I mean, if the host dies subsequently that's pretty bad for both parties, or?

[californical]

Sometimes, even usually, evolution finds a “local maximum” of effectiveness. Where the solution an organism finds is not optimal but it’s good enough for the organism to survive, even win.

So yeah I’m sure evolution didn’t create something perfect in the disease here but it survives long enough, and kills few-enough people slowly enough in the wild to survive

[techjamie]

Evolution is just a race to "good enough to consistently reproduce" and everything after the sufficient reproduction is irrelevant. Like the goats whose horns have to be cut or they'll eventually pierce their own brain.

Generally it's more advantageous for your own anatomy not to kill you without intervention, but they reproduce and that checks off the "good enough" box.

[fhdkweig]

If it can spread before killing the host, it has done its job (evolutionarily speaking).

[cjmcqueen]

Viruses don't care if the host dies. Evolution doesn't explain all things in nature.

[lightbulbish]

Evolution theory by itself doesn’t give us the ability to explain everything in a certain moment, but that’s only due to lack of knowledge on our part.

Consider that measles in itself comes originally from a animal but a mutation found itself be able to spread to humans. That, in and of itself, is the process of evolution.

So while it is not necessarily a useful lens to try to interpret a moment in time as many unknown factors are at play (for example the same gene that is important for mortality might also impact survival in certain environments, and therefore how contagious it could be), if we were to understand it’s history of every mutation that came and went, the environments it lived in, evolution theory would explain why the path looked like it did. And subsequently why it is like it is today.

[colechristensen]

The virus "cares" if it reproduces. There is often tension between the various levels of spreading mechanisms: for example airbourne spread diseases making you cough vs. the cough making the host feel poorly and not interacting with people or the cough killing the host really preventing further spread. There are plenty of optimum points between fast intense disease and asymptomatic disease.

Short term intense disease courses tend to only work for a short period of evolution for new infection mechanisms, the intensity makes them sensitive to any increased immunity which ends up halting the spread for more mild versions. Infectious diseases tend to lower in intensity over the long term.

[tgv]

I think that question is too simple.

1. We might not be the only hosts or place where it can survive. Measles seems to have mutated from a cattle virus.

2. Killing the host might be the virus' end-game, in which case it evolved to extinction. Mutations nor evolution don't have a goal. There's not always an advantage. I bet most changes aren't advantageous.

3. If you really want to see everything in terms of evolutionary change, the virus could even been seen as a tool in human evolution.

Evolution is a way to look at changes in and forces operating on living things. It is a property that emerges for human observers. Nature doesn't care about it.

[lazide]

It’s a side effect in a small portion of the infected. It spreads well enough regardless, so it doesn’t particularly hurt it.

[selectodude]

And there’s a non-zero chance that it lives dormant in your brain and you die several years later. Absolutely bonkers.

[bryanlarsen]

And by "it" you mean measles? Or do you mean the vaccine? Completely reverses the message of your post!

[WarOnPrivacy]

> And by "it" you mean measles?

Yes. They mean that measles "erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases.".

The grandparent was discussing their measles experience and the parent was responding to that.

[throwa356262]

Wait, measles erases antibody memory?

First of all, this is scary. Secondly, I wonder if it hase the same effect on autoimmune disease?

[chasil]

It destroys memory B-cells.

"Once the measles virus contacts the mucosa lining the respiratory tract, it binds to SLAM (signaling lymphocyte activation molecule, also known as CD150) on the surface of macrophages and dendritic cells. These cells then take up the virus... These immune cells pass the virus on to other groups of immune cells, including B cells, T cells, thymocytes, and hematopoietic stem cells, which disseminate the virus to other organs during the incubation period.

"Immune amnesia

"The measles virus can deplete previously acquired immune memory by killing cells that make antibodies, and thus weakens the immune system, which can cause deaths from other diseases. Suppression of the immune system by measles lasts about two years and has been epidemiologically implicated in an increase in childhood mortality from other infectious diseases during this period. The measles vaccine contains an attenuated strain of the virus which does not deplete immune memory."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

[madaxe_again]

It can. It’s not common, from what I understand, but there are cases where it has put various autoimmune disorders into remission, either temporary, or permanent.

That said, you become far more likely to end up sick with a whole bunch of other stuff, which can then eliminate any benefits for the autoimmune disorders.

Oh, and there’s also a chance it will give you an autoimmune disorder.

Absolute bastard, if you ask me.

[mrtesthah]

Measles infections can trigger the following autoimmune diseases:

* Type 1 diabetes

* Multiple sclerosis

* Rheumatoid arthritis

[guilhas]

Such a serious effect I would expect tons of research on it. And being commonly known

But it is a seemingly new symptom being attributed to measles

Between that and doctors refusing to diagnose long covid or lyme disease. Which have a much bigger link to immune disorders

One would think someone is trying to muddy the waters. Or accidentally misattributing

[alfiedotwtf]

It’s crazy that in the past year, I’ve been hearing MAGA hold measles parties yikes!

[pavlov]

> “Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive”

We are forgetting the lessons of WWII, and the world is now stocked with thousands of nuclear weapons each hundreds of times more powerful than Hiroshima.

I don’t think we as a civilization can afford this kind of amnesiac adaptation anymore.

[bryanlarsen]

We've also lost everybody who remembers the lessons of the 30's.

There's a saying that people get more conservative as they age. But the Greatest Generation, those that experienced the 30's and WW2 tended in the opposite direction, voting more left as they aged.

[jancsika]

> Quite interesting to see.

No, the article is a shitshow.

Ben Dowse is an MD, not a pediatric nurse.

The family ended up accepting the antibody treatment before leaving the hospital. The Daily Mail article bizarrely implies that they never accepted the treatment.

Both journalistic mistakes are clear from reading the beginning of the Wired article linked in the error-laden Daily Mail article.

Did you notice these errors?

[arjie]

I did not notice those. And it's my fault for not looking at the Daily Mail critically by looking one level deeper. I should know better than this since this is something I complain about, and also I am aware the DM is rarely accurate. I suppose it aligned with my previous knowledge that we are on the verge of losing herd immunity in much of the anglophone world: https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/2016217002008809982?s=2...

Thanks for contradicting.

I do think it's interesting that herd immunity is failing, but the linked piece itself is not very good, agreed. Amending now to make it clear I don't think it's that the article is interesting.

[entuno]

The Daily Mail is a trashy tabloid, so it's not surprising. Weird to see it posted here as though it's a credible source for anything.

[madaxe_again]

It seems like there’s a pretty strong parallel with the failure of the screw worm eradication programme. It just became a thing we did, rather than the absolute miracle it was - like vaccination - and then from complacency grows suspicion, for again, as you say, few people alive remember how it was.

[Avshalom]

Well the screw worm thing happened because Elon Musk hired a bunch of twitter nazis to put the government through a wood chipper.

This is the end result of decades snake oil moguls empowered by orin hatch and then turbo charged by people being furious that they weren't allowed to go to TGI Fridays for six months.

[arjie]

I don't think that's true. Supply-chain issues caused by the COVID-19 pandemic and response were probably a big factor - or so I've read, I'm not an expert. In any case, by 2024 (pre-DOGE), new-world screw-worm fly had breached the Panama boundary where we can feasibly keep it contained with a fixed on-going effort. I remember because some time during the pandemic I learned about the thing from someone linking a much older article in the Atlantic[1].

0: https://web.archive.org/web/20240218010527/https://www.fas.u...

1: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/05/flesh-ea...

[WarOnPrivacy]

> This is the end result of decades snake oil moguls empowered by orin hatch

What did Hatch do (I mostly know him as the paid servant of the copyright industry)?

[cptroot]

This is likely about Orin Hatch's dedication to the idea of a "balanced federal budget", to be paid for with program cuts instead of taxation.

[Avshalom]

Oh no, he's just straight up the guy that keeps it legal to sell cyanide-rich apricot kernels as anti-cancer meds*

*statement not evaluated by the FDA

[Avshalom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_...

[Arodex]

It is not "generational memory", it is an active campaign of lies and FUD by crooks, grifters and idiots.

[masklinn]

I would say generational memory is a factor, if you've seen an uncle or a grandparent who'd had polio, or you're old enough that measles was a thing in your youth, and you've seen these ailments disappear over your lifetime, the lies and FUD will have a much harder time taking root.

If these ailments are completely abstract in both their scope and personal effects, it's easier to be convinced by emotional manipulators. Especially if you're part of the... let's say low empathy population.

[enaaem]

Look at COVID conspiracies. We literally had images of patients in the hospital parking, because the hospital could not handle the tsunami of severe infections, but there are still people who believe that we should have let it rip.

[petilon]

It is not lies if Mr. Kennedy actually believes vaccines are harmful. Idiot, yes. Liar, no.

[estebank]

Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.