[jlgreco]

> Child porn is not a legitimate exercise of the first amendment

>They, and presumably you, claim without justification that "bad" speech cannot be pursued without chilling "good" speech.

> Your case that political speech cannot be free unless child porn is free,

Sigh. Yet another senseless, dangerous, and borderline libellous misrepresentation.

Allow me to strongly state this in no ambiguous terms: I do not oppose laws banning the production, distribution, or possession of child pornography. People who participate in any of those acts should be arrested and given a fair trial by a jury of their peers. I support these laws. I am not, IN ANY WAY, saying, suggesting, or attempting to appear as though I am suggesting, that I think child pornography is protected speech.

Is this clear now?

What I am arguing [snip]

Edit: You know what? Forget it. I am not participating in this discussion at the risk of being so thoroughly misunderstood. Not with this topic. It is not worth it.

[jessedhillon]

Well, you started off with such a contemptuous and condescending tone, but you missed a crucial distinction: nobody is saying that you don't support outlawing child porn, the question is whether or not you prioritize the preservation of hypothetical free speech (the case where speech is so constrained that Tor is the only/best avenue for free speech) over the enforcement of the laws which you feel compelled to declare support for.

So, less yelling, less sanctimonious wailing over how you're so misunderstood -- say how you think your priority of theoretical free speech isn't a de facto endorsement for transmission of child porn.

[jlgreco]

Endorsing it? What the hell?

I support the reasonable enforcement of the law. You accuse me of endorsing illegal activities for throwing in the word "reasonable"?

I am not defending myself further against your absurd and vile allegations.

[jessedhillon]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto

I'm not saying you support it, I'm saying your position has the effect of defending or perpetuating its mode of transmission.

[jlgreco]

It does not have the effect of defending, nor the effect of endorsing.

It does have the effect of meaning that some bad guys will get away, but that is how we as a society have agreed that our justice system should work. This is not a de facto defence of crime, nor endorsement.

Imagine how much easier catching bad guys would be if we did not require warrants before searches. Would you accuse someone who insisted that warrants were necessary of in effect endorsing or defending crime?

This is the real world, not a cop movie. We don't get to catch all the bad guys, and we don't get to break the rules to try to catch all the bad guys.

Recognition of this reality is neither a de facto defence nor a de facto endorsement of crime. People calling for proper conduct and moderated response to crime are not, unlike the internal affairs guys or judges who throw out cases for technicalities in movies, secondary antagonists.

I don't mind if you disagree with me when I say that in this case there is a line that should not be crossed without great care. That is a statement of opinion. Justice is an imprecise art, disagreement is to be expected. What I do have an issue with is you accusing me of endorsing or defending the crime, in a "de facto" manner or otherwise. I simply am not, and with this particular crime allegations like these can be incredibly damaging. It is not a joke to me, I have to take it seriously.

[jessedhillon]

A) Chill.

B) You haven't shown that there is something gained by letting child porn traders go, which is worth the cost. With due process, courts and warrants, we know what the upside is -- it's not clear what real benefit Tor provides us in exchange for letting this kind of activity go on. (Well, to me it's clear what the supposed gain is, and that it's not a fair trade)

[pdonis]

it's not clear what real benefit Tor provides us in exchange for letting this kind of activity go on

How about letting people in countries like Iran and China have a fighting chance of getting the word out about what's really going on there? Does that count?

How about letting people who are being stalked by creepy ex-spouses or ex-significant others have a chance of doing things online without being tracked? Does that count?

How about letting people who are afraid of reprisals speak inconvenient truths without being silenced? Does that count?

Basically you are saying these kinds of benefits aren't worth the chance of letting someone distribute child porn using Tor. That seems ridiculous to me.

[jlgreco]

So long as you are no longer accusing me of endorsing crime, I am satisfied with you disagreeing with me.