[masklinn]

> Car lobby certainly accelerated the process, but car users were the main driving force.

Not really. We know it’s not as much of a natural force as some would like it to be because there are places where the lobbies lost, and while cars are common and widespread they’re nowhere near as dominant as they are in, say, the USA.

NJB’s next video (currently available on nebula) is about exactly that, Amsterdam’s (/ De Pijp’s) resistance to cars and car lobbying.

[hylaride]

Subsidies played a huge role, including the eminent domain bulldozing of cities for free-at-use highways. If people had to pay upfront for those costs, the urban landscape would look much different (probably closer to Japanese cities, which do have massive suburbs, but centred around train stations).

Yet Japan does still have cars (and a car culture even), they're just not necessarily the default or dominant mode of transport.

[masklinn]

Sure, nobody is saying cars are useless or unfun, I'm just pushing back against the idea that everything car everywhere is a natural and intrinsic outcome from cars existing. As I noted, even in the netherlands cars are common, the dutch have a very dense road network, and a fair amount of cars.

[hylaride]

I think we're on the same page.

For me, cars are a perfectly fine mode of transport, but the way so many places prioritize it over alternatives (whatever the reason) isn't necessarily better.

My "wtf" moment was 20 years ago when I was visiting my cousin in an exurb and we sat in a line of cars for over 40 minutes waiting for our turn to pick up her kid. The messed up part was that while there were school busses, everything was so spread out that the bus ride for them would have been over an hour and then another 20 minute walk from the arterial road drop-off point to their house. Everything was far away, including local public parks.

[killerstorm]

My view on this is based on situation in Ukraine: Ukraine definitely didn't have any car lobby at least until 1990 as Soviet Union was heavily investing into public transportation and did not profit from car sales.

Still, general opinion on cars was that you should buy one if you can, even if you're not going to use it for commute.

I doubt there was any car lobby in independent Ukraine as national car makers were just bad, and foreign were competitors. But general opinion on cars got to a point where not having a car when you can afford it (and can learn to drive, etc.) is considered weird.

So I'm afraid car dominance is just what happens naturally in a capitalist environment, and countering it requires an effort - e.g. eco-conscious population, urban planning and public transport optimization, etc. And Netherlands is such a country, as far as I know, but it just doesn't happen by default.

[Chu4eeno]

Isn't Not Just Bikes some US expat/biking maximalist?

I'm not sure I'd take him as some neutral authority on the history of cars and driving in Europe.

[chriswarbo]

> Isn't Not Just Bikes some US expat/biking maximalist?

According to their videos, they prefer trams within cities; generally take trains between cities; and acknowledge that cars are very useful for places which aren't so well connected (e.g. places that are far apart which aren't on a train line). They think encouraging the use of cars within cities is a bad idea (dangerous, scales poorly, makes those areas less pleasant to be, etc.).

Not what I'd think of as a "biking maximalist".

They do show themselves cycling to places that are nearby. Does that make Youtubers who record videos in their car "driving maximalists"?

[Chu4eeno]

I wasn't very familiar with the channel, sorry.

Not US expat either (or not yet), Canadian.

[masklinn]

> Isn't Not Just Bikes some US expat/biking maximalist?

You should really ponder the sanity of asking if a channel called “not just bikes” is a bike maximalist.