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by triceratops 16 hours ago
> Voting doesn't work

Disparaging democracy doesn't work. Saying shit like this is worse than not voting.

EDIT: Downvoted for defending democracy. I do love democracy :-D

6 comments

> Disparaging democracy

The ancient Athenians knew that elections favored the rich. That’s why they incorporated selection by lot into their system. Our modern understanding of democracy has fetishized elections to the point that some voters might see hundreds of them in a year, including for positions that shouldn’t ever be elected (e.g. judges), while still having little to no actual civic power.

How will you get selection by lot into the current system without violence? Voting.
> How will you get selection by lot into the current system without violence? Voting

Oh totally agree. But also civic involvement. The returns to even small amounts of civic engagement in America are so ridiculously high because most of the population doesn’t do it. If like 5% more of the electorate called their electeds at least twice a year, that would represent a 25% increase in civic engagement, enough to break constituencies.

I think the Athenians named our current system an oligarchy. Selection by lot would take a lot of the corrupting influence of money out of the system too. There would need to be safeguards though, similar to how juries are protected during a trial.

I read somewhere recently about how congress should be much bigger than it is currently due to population growth, and how that would make all the redistricting that currently happens irrelevant.

The "just vote" lot are the perfect pressure release valve for the failed system.

Out of control inflation? No healthcare? Endless war?

Just vote! You just have to vote for a democrat!

It's time to say no to these charlatans. If people lose hope in the system, that's when it can change.

> You just have to vote for a democrat!

Or a third party.

> If people lose hope in the system, that's when it can change

There's only 2 ways it can change: voting or violence. You're saying voting doesn't work. That means you're advocating violence.

> Just vote! You just have to vote for a democrat! It's time to say no to these charlatans.

Biased much? Why not say no to Republicans, they put us in this mess time and time again.

Nah, voting doesn't work because to become a candidate necessarily requires backroom dealing at odds with the interests of common voters.

We need sortition.

How will you get sortition without voting for a pro-sortition candidate?
I've thought a lot about this, because my state is heavily gerrymandered, and the legislature keeps voting to undermine several recently passed amendments (abortion rights, marijuana) to our state constitution. They also tried to change the threshold for passing a referendum from 50% + 1 vote to 60%, when it was clear that there was enough support to pass the abortion rights amendment.

You do it via constitutional amendment, which is a popular referendum.

Fuck what the professional politicians think of sortition; do an end run around them, because professional politicians are the problem.

Get this accomplished in enough states, and then you have a level chance of doing an amendment to the US Constitution.

> You do it via constitutional amendment, which is a popular referendum.

Aka...voting.

If you truly believe "voting doesn't work", as you first said (EDIT: that was someone else whose username starts with a "b" sorry), then this referendum won't go anywhere either.

They didn’t say that! That was kitty Caligula.
Actually in this thread it was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48490568 but yeah the person I responded to isn't them either.
Since many people reading this probably don't know: voting is not the only, or even the original form of democracy.

Representatives in ancient democracies were selected by sortition, which is based on statistics, not popularity or money.

The only way to peacefully change how representatives are selected is...voting.
Nobody voted in Kamala Harris and somehow she became the only choice besides Trump.
Saying it seems to have become a taboo, probably because of the existential horror of it possibly being true.
Is there an alternative?
Say the truth; take the downvotes.

But I would say that the voting that matters most is voting in primaries. Get rid of the ideologues and zealots on both sides; get some people who can think rather than just yell.

Agree. Voting doesn't just mean voting in regular elections for legislators and executives. Vote in every election you are eligible for.
Not doing anything is also not working. Denying it is worse than saying its broken. It's clear as day.

Key figures, wealth, etc. Shouldn't influence their power to this extend. The general public isn't silent, it's silenced.

It's at best a weak check by the populace on two rival gangs of the ruling class. It's certainly not what its proponents claim it to be.
I see, you prefer your gangs unchecked?
I clearly did not say that, re-read and try again.

There's a lot of thoughtful responses to your histrionics, I suggest you take a breath and actually engage with the ideas contained within them.

> There's a lot of thoughtful responses to your histrionics

Sorry, can you please point to one of these thoughtful responses? I've seen one idea suggested: "sortition". But no ideas for how to get it peacefully without voting it in. I engaged with all these comments and asked this question.

"Voting doesn't work" is a cynical, doomerist, thought terminating cliche. I don't want this mind virus to propagate. You may call my comments "histrionics". But instead I suggest you take a breath and think about where calling voting and elections "useless" leads.