[SpicyLemonZest]

If the courts were to decide either of those cases, I would defer to their judgment. The Trump administration has made it clear that they're going to try and stop those cases from ever reaching a court, though, so in the absence of a court judgment I'm going to keep calling them murders.

[profdevloper]

Guilty until proven innocent

[text0404]

> Guilty until proven innocent

This is a description of your stance on Alex Pretti.

[profdevloper]

I don't think that's a charitable assessment -- Pretti was putting himself in the middle of what appeared to be a melee, was caught on camera destroying government property, was subdued by law enforcement who disarmed him and perhaps caused a negligent discharge that killed him. These things are best evaluated by a dispassionate court system after the fact, but even a finding in favor of Pretti doesn't bring him back to life. I just don't see the upside of citizens actively engaging LEOs during law enforcement activity.

[text0404]

So he wasn't proven guilty in a court of law, and everything that you're saying is conjecture based on your non-expert opinion? "Guilty until proven innocent," was it?

[profdevloper]

One thing not debatable -- the guy is dead. Whatever he was doing there, hope it was worth it.

[SpicyLemonZest]

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a principle we apply in criminal courts, as a control on their quite extreme power to kidnap you and put you in a cage if they decide you're guilty. It doesn't apply even in civil court, much less personal judgment. I don't have to wait for some third party's approval before I'm allowed to plainly describe what I've seen and what I think about it.

I do think it's important to be fair-minded. Minnesota is conducting investigations, and perhaps they will conclude that it wasn't murder after all; if they do then I would defer to that judgment as well.