[originalvichy]

I wonder how developing electric motors compares to combustion engines. My hunch says that it’s the main reason the Chinese high-tech electronics industry was able to develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast. (Edit: My more clarified point is regarding the machinery required + place to accommodate them to work on electric motors vs. ICE metal parts and all the intermediary parts transfering power in the drivetrain. The shop in the video is smaller than many would imagine.)

When these hopefully go to the next generation Formula E cars, we’ll see some crazy improvements in cornering. The newest generation already has active 4WD. I imagine this can bring even better torque adjustment improvements.

[pjc50]

The Chinese EV industry is actually lead by development of batteries, especially CATL. Along with the pack engineering, which is good old Mech.E stuff about heat transfer and physical strength.

Secondarily power electronics; at that scale, you can't just pick a bigger transistor and call it a day.

By comparison the motors seem to be a mostly solved problem, although I'm sure there's still some scope for power-to-weight engineering there, it's not as critical as the battery pack.

[DrBazza]

And is development of batteries (and better magnetics) not just chemical engineering and material science?

Motors might be a 'solved problem' - there might not be much innovation, Maxwell's laws aren't changing any time soon, but there will surely be a lot of incremental improvement - an early 1900s ICE is considerably worse than a 2000s ICE.

[bluGill]

> n early 1900s ICE is considerably worse than a 2000s ICE.

But how much worse is a early 1900s electric motor from a modern one? I can't find data, but I suspect the first electric motor from the 1830s is more efficient than a modern ICE (even if we assume the ICE is built for efficiency, screw emissions). There is some room for improvement, but there isn't much difference between our best motors and perfection (a carnot cycle by contrast is as best much worse than perfection)

[crote]

Early electric motors were awful, because there was no good way to control their speed.

For example, DC motors used in some late-1900s trains still had a giant variable resistor in series with their motor, burning away a huge chunk of the power as heat to force the motor to run at a lower speed during acceleration. AC motors weren't much better.

Electric motors only became truly efficient when variable-frequency drive became viable, which was in the 1980s due to semiconductor innovation.

[mitthrowaway2]

Surely the variable resistor would only have been on the field winding. It wouldn't waste that much energy.

[bluGill]

Figuring out where to place it, or how to do this took time. I'm sure some early attempts were really bad.

[lazide]

Helped along by the somewhat Wild West attitude towards worker safety and industrial regulation - high energy density batteries are hard to get right, and extremely dangerous if done wrong. During manufacturing in particular.

And only get cheap at scale.

[sgt101]

I thought that for a long time the german supply chain had an advantage in terms of the precision engineering to create drive chains for ICE - but EV's don't have the same number of moving parts and hence... end of advantage?

[ajross]

> The Chinese EV industry is actually lead by development of batteries

This is the core point, but it applies for the whole of the industry. Motors just don't matter. An electric motor is an almost vanishing component of the weight and complexity of an electric vehicle. Cut the mass of the thing *in half* and you're looking at 100kg savings, tops. You could do that with a Model Y by just changing the roof material to something boring and not glass. You could almost do it by shrinking the oversized-as-is-the-fashion wheels.

So... it's great that Mercedez-Benz is producing these, I guess. But it won't make their cars anything more than incrementally better. Which is why we're seeing them crow about it in a press release and not a spec sheet.

[dcrazy]

If they’re small, light, and cheap, you can put 4 of them on the car and get independent all-wheel drive and insane acceleration.

We have a dual-motor EV and our lease is expiring this year. We have our eyes on the GLC EV, which will land in the U.S. with a tri-motor design at first. There’s no fun in a single-motor EV.

[SoftTalker]

Standing on the shoulders of giants, mainly.

All the industrial processes and machine tool development that happened in the ICE car industry over the last century (and the electronic hardware manufacturing, more recently) was available day one.

[cromka]

AFAIK Chinese electric cars used western motor drivetrains and often still do?

[mattgrice]

Low power and high power electronics don't actually have a lot in common other than the broad types of engineers you need to be educating.

China has industrial policy. The country and companies are able to invest in BEV technology knowing that everyone agrees on the direction.

[tw04]

>I wonder how developing electric motors compares to combustion engines. My hunch says that it’s the main reason the Chinese high-tech electronics industry was able to develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast.

The talent had very little impact to be honest. The primary factor was a government looking 50 years down the road seeing that:

1. ICE engines have little to no long-term future in transportation.

2. global warming is a thing whether the right wing in the US likes it or not.

3. They were never going to overtake the West in ICE engines and had to attack from a different angle.

The US' lack of breakthroughs in EVs has little to do with technology or expertise and everything to do with an administration that is openly hostile towards EVs and renewable energy in general. For the rest of the planet, EVs becoming the primary form of transportation is just an obvious and logical conclusion, even if it takes us another 25-50 years to get there.

China saw it and decided to heavily incentivize and subsidize the rapid expansion of EVs both to fix the air quality issues in China and corner the market.

[tredre3]

> The US' lack of breakthroughs in EVs has little to do with technology or expertise and everything to do with an administration that is openly hostile towards EVs and renewable energy in general.

It has nothing to do with the current administration either. For one thing, China's dominance predates it. For another, the EU and Japan have failed equally hard at capturing any meaningful EV marketshare.

[SoftTalker]

1. There is still no good answer for air transport, trans-oceanic shipping, long-haul trucking, and long-distance rail. ICE will be used there for a good while longer.

[govg]

I think air transport and oceanic shipping will probably still take time owing to energy density concerns, but there are electric trucks already (with trials of roadside charging rails that can actively charge during driving), and for a large part of the world, electrified trains are the norm. It's a uniquely US problem that rail isn't electrified, even other major OECD countries are above 50% if not more, while in places like India it is almost 100% electrified railway (one of the largest networks in the world).

[Mashimo]

With mandatory breaks you have to take while trucking in a lot of countries, is it really that far out? I would imagine you could charge while you sleep.

[SoftTalker]

I don't think we have the battery power density to power an 80,000 lb (~36,200 kg) truck at 65mph for 11 hours as allowed by the DOT Hours of Service Rules and Regulations (though I believe a 30 minute break is required after 8 hours, and the 11 hours of driving has to be within a 14 hour window, so some recharging stops may still work within those limits).

[pstuart]

The current admin is actively hostile to EVs, but I think the real problem was the chicken and egg issue of charging stations: they wouldn't be built because there wasn't enough demand for them and EVs would be limited in sales because they wouldn't have chargers to use on the road.

This is where Tesla made a huge difference with Supercharger stations. I am no fan of Elon, but that work was fundamental in making EVs viable in America.

[henrikschroder]

Nevertheless, there seems to be zero buy-in from commercial players in the US. It's such a weird uphill battle.

I live in the US, but every summer I spend a month in Sweden, and the past two years I've rented EVs for the entire stay, and the buildout of chargers these past 4-5 years has been astonishing. It's gone from crap to fantastic in a very short time, and that's without massive government intervention or subsidies or screaming and cajoling.

Because in Sweden, the primary driver of charging stops along highways and in the cities are gas stations.

They already make all their profit from incidental purchases and not the gas itself, so them pivoting to EV charging stops makes perfect sense. They already have the infrastructure in place to sell you overpriced hotdogs and coffee and snacks for your road trip, they already have restrooms in place.

But they also do the same in the cities, it seems like every city gas station has also put up a couple of 350W charging stations. It's not half-assed, they mean business. They all see the writing on the wall, in neighbouring Norway EV's are 90+% of all new car sales, Sweden is at ~30% right now, and climbing, so gas stations will go out of business if they don't pivot to EV charging.

It's fundamental market economy forces at work, the kind of stuff that the US normally prides itself of.

So why is that not happening in the US?

[pstuart]

I think it's because the incumbents do not know how to build competitive, desirable, affordable EVs. I'm just an armchair observer, but that makes a fair amount of sense.

The other part is that a lot of money is made in the production and sale of fuel and those players have significant influence in how things work -- this is evident in the Trump admin's demonization of renewables and going all in on fossil fuels.

Watching all this craziness from the sidelines is crazymaking and heartbreaking. We can only keep China at bay for so long, and then when the dam breaks the domestic auto makers are going to go down, along with the whole economic ecosystem that supports them. It doesn't have to be this way...

[henrikschroder]

Oh, right, the US has this weird Tesla oligopoly.

In Europe, Tesla generally has a single-digit EV marketshare, so over 90% of consumers don't care about or use the Supercharger network, and are obviously demanding charging locations.

Two years ago in Sweden I rented a random Chinese EV , a NIO ET7, and its onboard navigation system was fully connected to all the major charging networks, so I could see charging stations, their speeds, and open stalls directly in the car navigation, no external apps needed. So there's a whole perfectly functioning non-Tesla ecosystem, and pretty much everything is tap-to-pay, so no apps, no registrations, no memberships, no nothing. And no lock-in.

Kinda ironic that Teslas big start and Supercharger buildout is now holding the US back compared to the rest of the world.

[JSR_FDED]

The new season of Formula One feels (unfortunately) like Formula E!

[eightysixfour]

In Formula E the drivers control engine behavior and regen. It is much better than F1 right now.

[jcgrillo]

It would be awesome if they would implement a crude rule: no computers. You can use a computer to design the car--CAD/CAM/CAE are all fine--but no stored program computers are allowed in the race car. I think that would improve F1 tremendously.

[pbmonster]

Very funny idea. That basically means a carbureted gas engine, or a direct injection diesel with a mechanical governor and mechanically timed injection pumps - can't run a direct injection gas engine without a digital engine control unit, because the injection timings are much to precise to do mechanically.

So, basically '60s Formula 1. Might be fun to watch. We'd certainly see some crazy engine designs and a lot of re-fueling pit stops...

[jcgrillo]

> can't run a direct injection gas engine without a digital engine control unit, because the injection timings are much to precise to do mechanically.

This is not accurate, the first production direct injection gasoline automotive engine was in the 1954 Mercedes-Benz 300SL. It's true, you probably won't be running piezoelectric injectors without computer controls, but there's nothing preventing direct injection.

But that would make it interesting. How many of the advances we've made in the past 75yrs could be accomplished some other way if you take the computer away? You don't need a computer to accomplish nanosecond timing. Maybe there's a clever analog way to run piezoelectric injectors.

[jcgrillo]

To phrase it maybe a little more provocatively: how would you accomplish the precise timing necessary to achieve spherical implosion? This was possible with analog electronics in 1945. Surely in 2026 we can also build analog piezoelectric fuel injection systems.

[bityard]

To play devil's advocate, this starts to get into the territory of, how do you define a computer? If the analog circuitry is using sensors and passive components to inject fuel at spark at just the right time under varying conditions, "computing" them, one might say...

Maybe "no integrated circuits" might be a finer line.

[_carbyau_]

Most F1 fans have an opinion on F1 regulations. I like your take.

I want to see F1 car design be about function/performance above all. I want to see awesome gadgets using insanely clever design. Then ideally that design should influence built items in the rest of the world.

F1 used to be influential in creating and developing high technology. Now it seems to be about gathering high technology from elsewhere so as to meet the insane regulations most efficiently.

[AtlasBarfed]

I'm not saying there isn't room for innovation but... Electric motors have been around for a century now already in many applications.

It's not like the Dawn of the steam engine

[graftak]

According to wikipedia[1] the first industrial steam engine (1712) was invented almost 100 years before the invention of the steam locomotive (1804), arguably its greatest evolutionary feat.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_steam_engine

[bluGill]

The timeline of the electric motor isn't much behind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_electric_motor.

[picofarad]

> develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast.

How do you know this for a fact? Chinese press releases? You've driven one? Some auto blogger drove one?

After world war 2 Gorbachev or whoever visited the United States and during that trio visited a supermarket. He thought it was a facade, possibly, put on just for him, there's no way Americans are this prosperous (or whatever, this good at agriculture, farm equipment, etc)

Also do the race cars have 4 wheel drive, or all-wheel drive? I'm wagering all-wheel with "torque vectoring" and "Yaw control", like a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X.

[Grombobulous]

I am somewhat confused at the intensity of pushback for the statement “leading electric vehicles.”

Chinese EVs are leading and that doesn’t necessarily mean being the best, most advanced vehicles. They are leading in value/pricing, and in many regions they are leading in sales.

BYD sells almost double the EV volume of Tesla globally as of December 2025. They are objectively leading in that respect.

I think the parent comment of yours made a good point (or at least adjacent to a good point) about China’s ability to enter the market: they can’t compete with 100 years of internal combustion engine development along with the vast parts supplier network of the West, but they can compete on battery chemistry, battery supply, motors, and the more vertically integrated EV space where automakers don’t need to depend on a huge network of parts suppliers like they did in the past.

I also think that a lot of pushback to the innovation that China is delivering is criticism that is stuck in the past. If you buy a Xiaomi car, it integrates perfectly with all your Xiaomi consumer devices. You can control your rice cooker or robot vacuum from your car’s integrated infotainment system. This type of approach was exactly what Apple was going to deliver before they abandoned their automotive project.

Or, you can buy a Mercedes and you’ll get a car with more precise handling and perfectly tuned driving characteristics. The infotainment system looks like Windows Vista.

Which side of the aisle do you think most consumers care about? I think most people buy into Xiaomi’s approach.

[vctrnk]

Semiofftopic but somehow I took offense at the Vista comparison. Aero Glass was peak UI design to me, and I'd certainly prefer it to modern paradigms like flat controls, or to stretch it even further, Corporate Memphis etc.

Curse you, Apple and Jony Ive. You only needed to tone skeuomorphism down not kill it.

[Grombobulous]

I’m genuinely delighted that this reaction to that little phrase came up! It was definitely something of a half-joke on my part: the Mercedes infotainment system is very well-regarded, but it does not look “modern” compared to something like a Tesla, Rivian, or Xiaomi.

The hyperscreen from a physical hardware perspective looks strangely dated to me as well, depending on the specific car model.

[kakacik]

I wouldnt be so harsh even with chinese combustion engines, its at this point a meme that is just copy pasted because everybody says so, but without actual experience. People dont understand how China is 3x bigger than Europe and 4x bigger than US, the scale of that market is absurd and competition numerous and fierce.

I've had MG suv rented recently with just gasoline engine and it was fine. This comes from long term bmw driver, they are not on the exactly same level, but light years ahead from similarly prices ie french vehicles. Handling was fine too, probably the biggest shock for me, this is where french, italian etc are losing me (bmw effect). And they cost 1/3 of bmw.

[Grombobulous]

True, and on a similar wavelength, nobody seems to care that Kia/Hyundai engines are super mid.

Heck, nobody seems to care that Toyota engines/transmissions sound like a vacuum cleaner and have pretty mediocre NVH on models like the Corolla, but they buy those products for reliability and efficiency.

[genewitch]

you consider the question asked to be "intense"?

[csomar]

I think with xiaomi yu7 and Tesla killing the model S, the chinese are leading in everything when it comes to EVs.

[throwaway20222]

Listening to the heads of the American and European car companies say the same and driving in them in china. I know that is different than personally disassembling one and reviewing it, but I am not sure the incentive for the other companies to say they have inferior products, unless it was a play for subsidies or deregulation of some form.

Personally I feel that the rest of the world continues to dramatically under estimate China’s progress and technological advancement at our own peril. Is there fluff and are their lots of untrue claims, of course, but that is certainly not something they have a monopoly on.

[crote]

It's because the West still views Chinese people as dumb laborers: just a bunch of cheap bodies who can do nothing more than screwing together our brilliant inventions.

China creates something of equal quality as a Western company? It must've been IP theft! China competes on price? It must be state subsidies! China creates something innovative? Don't use it - it'll send your data back to the CCP! Or just pretend it doesn't exist.

In reality Chinese people aren't idiots. We've spent a couple of decades giving away all of our manufacturing knowledge for a few cents of shareholder value, so it is not exactly surprising that they now possess that knowledge - and are able to build upon it. China is dealing with huge demographic changes, so obviously they've been pushing for automation, so it shouldn't be a surprise that those factories are now rapidly automating. Which we could've done in the West, but outsourcing it to cheap Chinese labor was cheaper in the short term.

For every genius in the West there are ten geniuses in China, and with their top-down economic policy they are able to apply it where it truly matters.

We created our own worst enemy, and are now crying foul. If we don't get rid of our outdated racist biases soon and start treating China like the successful superpower that it is, we're going to get completely steamrolled in the next few decades.

[BigTTYGothGF]

Aren't you getting your analogy backwards? American supermarkets have the same role in the story as Chinese cars.

[alextingle]

It was Yeltsin.