[an0malous]

These posts are never written by software engineers, it’s always some tech exec, retired engineer, or VC. This author is apparently a professor at the Wharton School of Management? None of these people have to ship or maintain real products, they’re just making side projects.

The only decent software engineering perspective I’ve seen has been from Mitchell Hashimoto.

[jimbokun]

Well that’s kind of the point.

They can just summon bespoke software out of the ether that only handles the use cases of themselves and a few of their collaborators.

Making “side projects” was mot possible for non-developers before powerful LLMs. Now it is.

[an0malous]

I don’t think that’s true, I think these authors are making a much stronger claim that AI is proficient or even an expert at software engineering. This author describes how complex and sophisticated their software is, and the only value he’ll concede to “coders” is that there might be a few bugs they’d need to fix.

Imagine not being an architect and using Claude to put together a building plan, then concluding it’s basically done but we might need a real architect to double check the measurements. It may even be true but I’d be skeptical if it’s always non-architects saying this.

[21asdffdsa12]

And - we kind of have been here before. The "proto"-type is almost complete. Its just a little slow, a little spaghettificated, just written in excel-vb, clicked together in node-graphs, or the next hot thing that makes coding unnecessary.

[bathtub365]

Why do they even need coders to fix these bugs? It would be an order of magnitude (at least) to ask Claude to find and fix them, and it will likely be successful.

Building in the physical world has physical and time constraints that cannot be overcome, which is one of the reasons architecture (and engineering) are so important in this domain. In software development these constraints were only inherent when people were writing the majority of the software. I feel like I’m seeing what I thought were fundamental constraints being eroded by the increasing speed and correctness of these tools and it’s making me reconsider the importance of some of the values that are held by software engineering.

It’s obviously dependent on the domain and solution, but if your software can be extremely rapidly rearranged, bugs found and fixed with little effort, and features added with only a minimum prompt, I think the entire definition of technical debt has changed. I’ve been sceptical of these tools and still approach their output with caution. I also worry that, as a software developer, if more can be accomplished in less time there will be less room on this planet for software developers.

[phil21]

> I think the entire definition of technical debt has changed. I’ve been sceptical of these tools and still approach their output with caution.

This very well summarizes my current thinking on the subject as well. And most of my career has been playing the role of technical debt nazi. Much to the detriment of my earning potential.

Does AI make incredibly inefficient code most of the time? Yup. But it does it at lightspeed with minimal effort.

I think many software engineers forget they exist to get real things done (in many cases at least) and they are a cost center for most businesses. If your end product is not selling software, very few people actually Doing the Thing(tm) will give a single solitary care about code quality or maintainability when they can just spend 30 minutes and $15 worth of tokens to fix it.

It won't take over everything, but I've already seen otherwise very intelligent go-getter type folks who are not technical or know how to code made extremely useful things for themselves and their small little enterprises. And this will seemingly only get better and more efficient.

For someone who really does love the idea of well architected and future-proof code this is just icky to even say or consider. But I'm coming around to this is the future for the majority of software for most places. And it may have the ability to seriously even the playing field for small enterprises in some industries.

I'm currently using it to implement a zillion side projects at home I've been "meaning to get to" for years. It makes incredibly silly unmaintainable code most of the time - but I learned to not care, and just tell the AI bot to fix it/add to it as I go along. Worst-case I spend a single night deleting it all and starting from zero to "refactor" an entire thing.

[prmoustache]

> I think many software engineers forget they exist to get real things done (in many cases at least) and they are a cost center for most businesses. If your end product is not selling software, very few people actually Doing the Thing(tm) will give a single solitary care about code quality or maintainability when they can just spend 30 minutes and $15 worth of tokens to fix it.

I am suprised to hear people so naive they expect their token usage to stay flat if code quality and maintainability starts falling exponentially?

What if to fix 2 bugs your LLM starts adding 50 new ones? Will you tell your customers in supports channel "sorry software is finished, if we try fixing anything, everything else might break, not worth it". Or "we can probably fix it, but our AI usage will raise so much we need to up the subscription 3 fold, you choose".

The speed at which LLM codes is only comparable to the speed at which they add garbage to your repo. If you stop caring about maintainability, you also stops caring about your AI/LLM related bills and the viability of your project past the PoC stage.

[varjag]

The GP explicitly mentioned "end product is not selling software". But even then, bugfixes introducing new bugs are not unheard of before. Most code used to be mediocre quality so there's not a sea of change with AI. Perhaps it even becomes better on average.

Another thing though is selling software in the first place will soon become tough proposition outside of a few niches.

[senordevnyc]

I am suprised to hear people so naive they expect their token usage to stay flat if code quality and maintainability starts falling exponentially?

There's no reason to think that quality and maintainability will start falling exponentially. On the contrary, these models get better every couple months, and 99% of software isn't actually that complicated. There's just no reason for the fear-mongering that fixing 2 bugs will cause the LLM to add 50 new ones.

[senordevnyc]

I think many software engineers forget they exist to get real things done

One billion percent. I think the vast majority of the anti-AI sentiments I hear from software engineers comes down to them caring more about playing with their tools than actually solving the problem.

[locknitpicker]

> Does AI make incredibly inefficient code most of the time? Yup. But it does it at lightspeed with minimal effort.

This hits the nail in the head.

Detractors often hang on to examples of coding assistants making mistakes or output subpar code, but they somehow miss the fact that coding assistants can also be prompted again and refactor whole swaths of code just as fast as they introduce oopsies. This means that the worst case scenario implies fast convergence to an acceptable outcome, and from there also fast iteration to improve upon that.

[rglullis]

The problem is that this approach is not sustainable. Errors compound. The cost to fix one issue might seem small at first, but over a stretch of time all these "oopsies" become architectural spaghetti that can only be fixed with a complete rewrite, which will certainly become more expensive than getting the code "organically" developed.

The only way I see AI coding working in the long run is if we go back to a Waterfall/BDUF process and having actual engineering. Let engineers really own the architecture. Enforce that any new feature - no matter how small - to be specced out with complete sequence diagrams. Ensure that every new software package needs to be put on an UML component diagram for the team to review and see each addition interacts with the whole system, etc.

If we do that, then we can just give all the documents to a coding agent and say "go ahead and implement this" with a minimal amount of confidence. But in doing this, I bet we will realize the following:

    - the "effort" has never been about writing code itself. The code is just the material manifest of all the thought that went to think over a solution into the problems that the product is attempting to solve.

   - we will likely be better off by using code generation tools (i.e, UML-to-code) and a "weak" LLM (than can run locally) than by playing the token lottery at the Anthropic Casino.

[dkersten]

I haven’t used Fable/Mythos yet, but my experience with recent version of Opus, GPT 5.5 and recent Chinese models is that promoting again isn’t guaranteed to fix the underlying issues, nor is it guaranteed to not introduce more issues. I’ve seen SOTA models make ridiculously stupid architectural decisions that they were then unable to back out of without being prompted very specifically, instead adding a patchwork of “fixes” on top.

I’m not saying that you can’t use AI to do it because I believe that with carefully controlled workflows and context management you can, but it’s not a simple prompt away, it’s requires guidance and understanding, and isn’t the speed demon that raw prompting is.

[asoderlind]

I think this is overlooking the fact that assigning a coding assistant to fix the bugs it re-introduces for all eternity just leads to spiraling token costs, which might cost more than just hiring a competent engineer in the first place.

[eithed]

Don't forget that you can adjust your requirements (either via plan or skill) to ensure the mistakes do not happen. The problem is that neither LLMs, nor humans (that don't work with the domain) will know they made these mistakes. Even coders don't think about everything all the time

[vrganj]

In my experience, the refactors are just as bad, just in different ways. All you end up doing is treading water with different iterations of shitty code. By the time you get somewhere acceptable, you could've just fixed it up yourself.

My preferred workflow these days is to pair program with an LLM until it gets close-ish and then manually touch it up. Without that, it just produces junk in different forms.

[dv_dt]

It's quick to build a hut in a green field, but slow to remodel the expanded building after. I think that will remain true regardless of if a team of sw developers are doing it, or an AI with a product manager or somewhere in between.

[mitxela]

Technical debt remains the same. LLMs are found not to work as well when editing messy codebases - exactly the kind you get after using an LLM for a while. After a few weeks or months you have to either throw it away and start over, or involve a human at exorbitant prices.

[squidbeak]

> I think these authors are making a much stronger claim that AI is proficient or even an expert at software engineering.

The author specifically says:

> I am sure it is not perfect (I only spent an hour working with the results), but a software engineer would iron out the remaining potential bugs that I could not find quickly (which is one reason we may need more, not less, coders in the future, to help with the explosion of new uses for software)

which acknowledges pretty clearly that engineers bring a level of insight and experience still missing from Mythos. Saying that, I totally disagree with his contention that this will always be true. It's pretty weird that the author of an article stressing the steep improvements in a model's capability can't seem to imagine further improvements in that capability. As if Mythos is where development ends or whatever gap remains between models and experts won't steadily narrow or eventually widen in reverse.

[SpicyLemonZest]

It is, and it's cool that it is, but the calibration is important. Statements like this:

> With Fable the spell has gotten powerful enough that I am no longer sure I am the wizard. I am closer to a patron. I describe what I want, I pay for it, and I judge the result. The conjuring happens somewhere I cannot watch, in hundreds of small choices I never get a vote on. The work has shifted from process to outcome. I no longer steer; I commission.

have a very different meaning coming from a non-technical researcher than they would from someone who builds software for a living.

[shimman]

Making side projects isn't a trillion dollar industry tho, adding to the fact that we are facing another global supply chain crisis due to the Iran War; the US is about to commit the biggest self-own ever in the history of empire.

[Schmerika]

There are actually quite a few trillion dollar industries that exist thanks to "side projects".

Apple was Woz's side project, once upon a time. Adsense came from Google's 20% time. Social media started as a side project.

Forests grow from trees. Trees grow from seeds. More potential seeds = more potential forests.

[queenkjuul]

All the undiscovered Woz's of the world add up to a trillion dollars? There's $1T of money out there waiting to be spent on side projects?

The question was "are side projects a trillion dollar industry" not "has a side project ever started an industry"

How much of a new $1T software product will anthropic capture in token costs, anyway?

[zelphirkalt]

The US has been on a course of self-owns ever since Trump got into office. That they still are a dominant power on the globe shows how much they were one before Trump, but it seems to be changing. At every self-own they commit, China laughs and inches up a little closer. I think we will see the day, when they are evenly matched in our lifetimes.

But which self-own exactly do you mean, of the many there are?

[bandrami]

Well, right, but if the real use case for LLMs is "making software that wasn't economical to make before" that's bearish for the labs because it means they're only going to be chasing the low end of the market.

[neilv]

Relevant quote:

> I am sure it is not perfect (I only spent an hour working with the results), but a software engineer would iron out the remaining potential bugs that I could not find quickly [...]

People have said things like this many times in the past, and, in the past (perhaps not now), it's always been a misunderstanding of what is good and bad, what's difficult and easy.

For example, someone would draw a UI in a GUI painter that generates code (or a resource file), and a manager would see it and think the majority of the work towards the product is done. (Incidentally, then there seemed to be a reaction, towards making your UI mockups look abstract or otherwise different from runnable code, helping the nontechical to understand that this isn't 90% of the finished product.)

Or a student intern hacks out a homework-grade demo, and a manager who understands neither software engineering nor product domain says "we just need some engineers to polish it up for production", and thinks the student is a star and why can't their engineers be as brilliant and productive. (I might have once been that energetic intern, who was happy for the encouragement, but then learned more, and saw it was a thing.)

This common misunderstanding was sometimes self-correcting -- when trying to ship became a disaster of misery and regretted-attrition, or the product was poorly received by the market because it wasn't thought through nor implemented well, or building subsequent functionality atop it was a nightmare. (But adverse effects of bad approaches is one of the reasons for management and ICs to job-hop, before the unwanted effects affect them personally.)

What might be different now is that some of these AI tools are outputting better-engineered work than some software engineers, and much faster.

At the back of my mind, I'm wondering how the really great software engineers will continue to stand out, as the discipline is being devalued in the minds of most leadership, and anyone can prompt an AI to generate something that superficially appears to them like what they assume a great software engineer would produce. (Even if the great engineer would do much better quality of implementation, have innovative ideas that ML from open source code would not, and maybe arrive at better product concepts as they worked through the problems.)