[m-i-l]

I clicked on the link wondering if the twist might be that it was from state-backed troll farm, but not the country we normally associate with state-backed troll farms...

However, from the article: "This may not always be classic foreign interference in the state-backed sense. Sometimes it's much more banal. It's in some ways more depressing, ... People sitting thousands of miles away working out that Canadian outrage is a profitable niche. I think they may not actually care about Canadian politics at all."

I wonder how "free speech absolutists" defend the idea of people in low-income countries using these platforms to spread outrage simply to make themselves a little money (and the platform owners a lot of money), rather than to "exercise their right to free speech" or whatever, given these people aren't saying anything they believe in (let alone have any interest in or even knowledge of). Not that you can really call it free speech if you are being paid to do it.

[sharperguy]

Free speech doesn't mean that we don't desire filters. Go check your gmail spam folder. Twitter would look identical to this with filters at all. What we really want is:

* transparency about the filters we have on our feeds

* the ability to tweak them if they're not working

* the ability to change providers without losing your entire social graph / reach

[_the_inflator]

You are on to something but going the wrong path. It is all about personal decision making and not enforcement by goverment.

To put it:

" * Government decides and approves about the filters we have on our feeds * the government has the right and duty to tweak them if they're not working in the way a panel of experts decides * no ability to change providers since there is only one that takes care of your entire social graph / reach "

Choose the premise wisely.

[trumpdong]

You're not a free speech absolutist then.

[jhedwards]

Historically, all speech was considered "intentional". And by speech here I am including two distinct things: the expression of opinion, and the publication of opinion by a magazine/newspaper owner.

I separate those two things because they are very different with respect to the scale of the dissemination of speech. Nevertheless, magazines and newspapers are free to publish opinion, though it is significant in my opinion that in those cases there is an accountable individual (the editor/publisher).

It strikes me as different when we have social media platforms that amplify speech to a massive scale without any accountability. Clearly, monetization fuels the large-scale amplification of some undesirable speech so that 1. it is not an opinion expressed in good faith and 2. there is no directly accountable individual, unless the poster can be considered accountable for FBs large-scale publication of their speech, which feels perverse to me. It's effectively "robo-published".

There are some conclusions which could be drawn here, and I'm not sure which should be drawn if any. But I think it's important to point out that the details do matter (libel laws and "malice" for example) and that the details change in significant ways as society and technology change.

[dspillett]

IME most people calling themselves a “free speech absolutist” absolutely believe those who agree with them should be free to speak, and anyone that might affect them negatively or just disagree should be stopped from oppressing or endangering them. The term usually means as little as the “democratic” in DPRK.

A true free speech absolutist would not be concerned with paid speech being blocked, in fact they should really be against paid speech, at least in the sense being discussed here. The point of free speech is to be able to say what you want and saying something else because you are paid to, because you can't afford to turn down the payment to say what someone else wants instead, is anti-free-speech.

[sunaookami]

This has nothing to do with free speech but giving an incentive (money) for posting which ruined every social media platform in existence (YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, etc.)

[p-e-w]

> I wonder how "free speech absolutists" defend the idea of people in low-income countries using these platforms to spread outrage simply to make themselves a little money

By recognizing that undesirable uses of free speech are the price society pays for having free speech, and by strongly believing that it is a price worth paying.

Just like 1.3 million global road traffic deaths per year are the price society pays for having cars, and believing that people should still be able to freely own and drive cars doesn’t make someone a “car absolutist”.

The idea that free speech should probably be restricted if it turns out that free speech can lead to unpleasant consequences misses the whole point of free speech – in many cases deliberately, I think.

[reddozen]

Free speech absolutists just don't defend their position because it devolves into absurdity immediately. It's just a dogwhistle of the far right or people that haven't put any thought into their beliefs.

[p-e-w]

It’s interesting how the idea that free speech is too important to sacrifice to any other cause, which was the position of Rousseau and other enlightenment luminaries, has supposedly turned from the foundation of humanism into a “dog whistle”.

The implication that if someone is unwilling to compromise on free speech, they must belong to the far right, is certainly revealing.

[pseudalopex]

> The implication that if someone is unwilling to compromise on free speech, they must belong to the far right, is certainly revealing.

No. The implication was almost no one who claimed to be unwilling to compromise on free speech was.

[wsng]

> Just like 1.3 million global road traffic deaths per year are the price society pays for having cars, and believing that people should still be able to freely own and drive cars doesn’t make someone a “car absolutist”.

Car traffic is heavily regulated to reduce the harm being done by cars/drivers.

[account42]

Don't forget that undesirable uses of free speech can be made less effective by more speech - as long as what you desire is actually in the interest of the people you want to influence. Like for example this article.

And of course in this case the root problem is not that people have free speech but that they are financially rewarded for using it in bad ways. Financial models that reward impressions are fundamentally bad for society.

[trumpdong]

Those who are making the undesirable speech can counter their opponent's speech with more speech of their own - and they can afford to outspeak their opponents at any opportunity because they are paid to speak and their opponents are not.

[account42]

Or maybe they can counter your speech because they have an argument and you do not.

[SR2Z]

To some extent, people also just need to be less credulous.

Being saturated with ragebait slop is a good way to get people to associate ragebait with wasting their time.

[throwthrowuknow]

Why are you making it sound like speech needs to be qualified? The point of freedom of speech is that it doesn’t need to be approved by any authority.

Sounds more like a mealy mouthed argument against it.

[dtj1123]

Cash incentivised speech is arguably not free.

[paganel]

That would make most (if not all) of today's mainstream media speech (and not only) as "not free".

To add, in essence I agree with you, that's why I regard Jean-Jacques Rousseau as one of the really few free thinkers out there, i.e. because he was aware that as soon as he was accepting to be paid for what he was writing then his speech would become "imprisoned".

[dspillett]

> That would make most (if not all) of today's mainstream media speech (and not only) as "not free".

Yep. I was going to say I wouldn't go as far as all, but I can't think of a mainstream counter example…

[dtj1123]

I'm not entirely sure that I believe this, although I do believe a strong argument can be made here.

I think the idea that various mechanisms in modern society are subtly corroding free speech en masse with various nasty knock-on effects is an interesting one though.

[trumpdong]

I've talked to enough free speech absolutists to know they would defend this behavior because they believe all speech should be allowed. It's written in the name of their ideology!