[ghshephard]

I think people are continuing to view these systems as pure LLMs - when that ship sailed 6+ months ago. Between being able to review memory, using agent harnesses and sub agents and skills to go out and discover information - modern systems (Codex, Claude Code, Cursor) - use LLMs - but the LLM is only a small component of it. Compare what you get from sending a request to a chatbot like ChatGPT - to what you can from a modern harness. The output is influenced by the LLM, but it's no longer a "model making a token prediction based on training material and RLHF" - that's a very 2025 way of looking at these systems.

Even Gary Marcus is starting to come around and realize that his priors are no longer as relevant as they once were.

[irthomasthomas]

No one is bitter lesson pilled anymore. Everyone is pivoting to neurosymbolic systems. It looks like Gary Marcus was right.

[nl]

> No one is bitter lesson pilled anymore.

Will the 10T parameter Mythos model be released this month or next month?

They better soon because it is generally accepted that one of the reasons GPT 5.5 is better at hard tasks than Opus is because of its parameter size - and that Opus 4.8 remains competitive only be scaling test-time compute (see how many more tokens it uses than GPT 5.5)

https://www.reddit.com/r/LLM/comments/1sz8bjz/parameter_esti...

[irthomasthomas]

Why ask me? Anyway, Mythos is not 10T. Anthropic confirmed the training run was under 10^26 flops. You can't train 10T to chincilla and stay under 10^26.

Anthropic also confirmed they will not release Mythos, only a "Mythos-class" model, whatever that means.

[nl]

> Anthropic confirmed the training run was under 10^26 flops. You can't train 10T to chincilla and stay under 10^26.

I don't think Anthropic have said anything of the sort.

Microsoft published it as 6.1*10^27 FLOPs[1]

Elon has claimed the are also training a 10T model because "Some catching up to do"[2]

[1] https://x.com/scaling01/status/2061897540161728791

[2] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2041754402239975479

[irthomasthomas]

I must have confused mythos with opus 4.7. One of their recent model cards confirmed that training flops was under the EO reporting requirement of 10^26 flops.

[wild_egg]

How is neurosymbolic not aligned with the bitter lesson? The bitter lesson is completely agnostic to architecture.

[irthomasthomas]

I should have stressed the symbolic part. Everyone has pivoted to symbolic systems like claude code and codex. They would no invest so heavily in such systems if they thought llms would deliver agi soon.

[jubilanti]

That's not what symbolic means.

[Terretta]

You think someone is, or even should, special case things like estimates? What else deserves that level of intervention so they look less dumb?

Logistics for getting to the car wash next door?

In the mean time, alas, no, we can see from actual prompts sent directly or through sub-agents, and actual replies, estimates remain LLM generated.

Though, this discussion here could change that, because indeed there is a lot of special casing and context stuffing going on, one of the oldest being today's date for example.

• • •

I did read the Claude Code leak, and use pi, etc. So I disagree with your premise rather strongly. Today's "systems" remain, roughly, piles of markdown and context engineering wrapped in UI affordances, and behave very similarly today to how they did in 2024 for those already engineering context and delegating.

[ghshephard]

I do a lot of code bisecting with Claude Code - and it spends hours running experiments - looking at experiment results, making guesses as to what to try next for an experiment - until it eventually comes around to a working code pattern. I mean - maybe this is as much a reflection on me as anything else - but it's pattern of logic isn't that much different from what I would do. It knows, in general, what tools and APIs it can call - it tries something - observes the result, and then comes back and tries different experiments based on success/failure - mostly efficiently bisecting to a solution.

I'm still lower-down of the capability scale - as I'm still manually directing agents to do these wiggins loops - obviously the next step up is to direct the code-loops which control the agents. I just haven't got my tooling nailed in place to the point where I find that's more productive.

I actually might agree with you that this is mostly just "next token prediction" - if I can concede that's really all I do as well.

[Terretta]

> I actually might agree with you that this is mostly just "next token prediction" - if I can concede that's really all I do as well.

Yep. Pretty sure I've got an LLM inside too.

The other replies complaining that my thinking is so 2023 -- on the contrary, what's evolved is my own apprehension of how LLM-like most "responses" from humans prove as well.

To be sure, there are other mechanisms at play as well, significant differentiation in our... Volume of training material? Quantizations/compression? Model architecture? Just-ahead-of-time forward branching with back propagation? Double loop adaptive learning? You know, harnessing the LLM. :-) Dare we call it executive function?

LLM mode becomes particularly apparent when conversing with Alzheimer's patients in the stage where short term memories do not form but they retain access to long term memory up to, say, 5 years ago or so. Fifty years of who they are, and one can trigger nearly identical responses with nearly identical prompts.

But that same person may be able to debate 1950s politics while being unable to complete making a sandwich.

If they didn't know of new shortcuts for a task, would almost certainly not "estimate" but "intuit", or "instictively" respond (apply heuristics), largely based on their "priors" aka training material.

If you sit with them and chat a while, you'll even get the kind of looping you get from Qwen trying to think when context is too full.

And if we believe this at all, then ... we should stop scrolling tik tok. Time to read a book. Have an experience. Fine tune. :-)

[8note]

rather than special casing, make real data based on chat logs for how long things took both in calendar and chat time