[nsoonhui]

I'm not sure this kind of competition is still meaningful, given that LLM can easily convert a program clearly written in any programming language to the most obfuscated C code, and can still easily verify it's correctness in an automated way.

Do I miss anything?

[s-macke]

Yes, you haven’t tried it. LLMs are actually awesome at deobfuscation, but terrible at obfuscation. They just can’t do it yet.

They also lack the creativity needed for those entries. Obfuscation is only one part of it. Coming up with the idea is another. Many entries also have special qualities that make them true works of art.

[awesome_dude]

They should train on some of my colleagues code - they have an inate skill of turning anything simple and clear into a mindboggling mess

[esikich]

Lol you're so much smarter, nice

[fooker]

> They just can’t do it yet.

Have you tried it or are you guessing this?

[s-macke]

Yes, I’ve tried it. For example, this was my winning entry from a year ago [0]. The LLM only performs trivial obfuscation, not advanced transformations.

For example:

  if (x == 1 || x == 2) { ...

can be transformed into:

  if (!(2+x*x-3*x)) { ...

An LLM will do this if you explicitly ask it to, but not on its own.

[0] https://github.com/ioccc-src/winner/blob/master/2024/macke/p...

[tromp]

One of the main instruments of obfuscation (and the way to get more out of the size constraints) is making the code as short as possible, so in that example you'd prefer

    if (!(x/2-1)) { ...

EDIT: Oops, confused the original with x==2 || x==3. Instead, we can use !(x-1>>1), which precedence rules parse as !((x-1)>>1).

[extrano84]

I checked this in an online C-compiler and it is not equivalent to x==1 | x==2.

this statement is equivalent to x==2 | x==3.

For example, x=3, 3/2 = 1 then 1-1 = 0 so that !(0) is 1 or true. Also for x=1, 1/2 = 0 then 0-1 = -1 and !(-1) = 0 or false.

I agree with your point in general though about size constraints.

[alienbaby]

It's pretty easy to see what that does though, even if it is shorter. Wouldn't the other approach be more obfuscated?

[Mankaninen]

extrano84 already found some errors but also 0 will fail and if x is int (instead of unsigned int) all negative numbers will also fail (but so will the original s-macke obfuscation as well).

[fooker]

Not sure what you mean by advanced transformations but I got these versions from ChatGPT without explicit instructions.

  if(x-1<2&&x)...
  if((1<<x)&6)...
  if(x<3&x)...
  if(3%x&&x<3)...
  if(!((x-1)*(x-2)))
  if(!(x^1|x^2))...
  if(!(x*x-3*x+2))

[listeria]

(1) fails for negative numbers

(2) fails for (x % 32 in [1, 2]) due to UB

(3) fails for x == 2

(4) crashes for x == 0

(5) is the same polynomial, only factorized

(6) always returns 0

(7) is the same polynomail reordered

But this works for any value of x:

  x<2==2-x

or for something shorter:

  x<3&x>0

but that's not bery obfuscated

[nsoonhui]

But then we all know that LLM has come a long way since one year ago.

Are you sure they still can't do it?

[lifthrasiir]

Just two months ago I tried to write a short K code with Claude Opus 4.6, only to find that while it had sufficient knowledge about K vocabularies it didn't try to make good use of them. K is, while slightly obscure and obfuscated, a real programming language and certainly better known than obfuscated programming. I don't have high hope for IOCCC-grade obfuscation.

[GuB-42]

The competition never was about actual obfuscation. If you really just want obfuscation, you are actually writing a DRM system, like Denuvo.

If anything, it is closer to code golf, the main obfuscation is often a result of all the trickery needed to do something impressive in a small amount of code. Of course, minification techniques are used, like renaming variables to single character and messing with the formatting, but that's the boring part, no one is going to win because of that.

Another aspect is being clever and unique, and abusing the rules is often rewarded... once. LLMs are not good at that. The judges are human, the code needs to a appeal to a human, not just be hard to understand.

[jjav]

> Do I miss anything?

That human art is worth the humanity in the art.

As soon as anything is automated, it's worth nothing.

[zabzonk]

Chess?

[GTP]

I think what they mean is that this sort of competition makes sense because it's about humans competing against each other, so that, even if we could have LLMs do it, the human version is still what captures our interest. In a similar way, we don't look at chess tournaments with computers playing against each others, but we look at chess grandmaster challenging each other. Even if it has been decades now that computers can beat grandmaster.

[visha1v]

yes llm can do it but i think competitions have more to do with developing scientific temperament, competitive mindset and complex problem solving skills. that's why i think they are still relevant and will be relevant for a long time.

[layer8]

You are missing that the IOCCC isn’t just about obfuscation, that the judges have taste.

[tjpnz]

Where's the fun in that?

[hulitu]

> Do I miss anything?

School ? /s