[budududuroiu]

Haven't been in an office since the start of COVID. Between being lucky enough to have a great coliving setup with dope housemates, and now having access to co-working cafes in Taipei that have genuine communities, I feel more social than ever with more meaningful connections. I still commute to the cafes, for me remote working is about not having to be tied to a geographic spot in order to keep my source of income, not isolating at home.

[nextos]

True, there's also another factor about not having to be tied to a geographic spot, housing costs.

In EU, even relatively good IT salaries are mediocre when you factor in monthly rental. A simple one-bed apartment can easily take 50% of your net income.

Having freedom to move, even within a particular country, allows reducing that 50% to something more sustainable.

[throwaway2037]

It never ends on HN, does it? These wild claims about "[i]n EU". I puke each time I see that phrase. The EU is enormous. There is no way that a "simple one-bed apartment can easily take 50% of your net income" in any mid-sized EU city, or an hour outside a large EU city.

[nextos]

My statement obviously referred to major cities, which is where most IT jobs are, as I indicated remote work allows you to leverage cheaper locations.

Take for example Oxford. A typical rental will be around £1,600 pcm. The median pre-tax salary is around £50,000, which converts to around £3,100 net. So, the apartment is actually more than 50% of your net income. Some programming jobs will pay a bit more, but you get the idea.

Another example, in Barcelona, a median net salary is less than a median rental. IT will pay better, but expect to spend around 40% of your net salary. I could also bring up Stockholm or Copenhagen and, unless you are in very senior IT jobs, it's going to look very similar.

[zwaps]

In UK and Spain, computer engineers earn the median income?

[wqaatwt]

Which to be fair isn’t that great in either country regardless if you work in tech or not. In major cities if you rent or have a mortgage (taken out recently) it’s basically poverty level.

[joe_mamba]

In many EU countries they do, after taxes. Exceptio being eastern block countries where non-tech salaries salaries are por.

[tonyedgecombe]

Oxford is in the UK which isn’t in the EU.

[joe_mamba]

Chill bruh. He most likely meant in EU's most livable, big, international Tier-1 cities where the SW dev markets are hot: London, Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm, Munich, Lisbon, Warsaw, Prague, etc

Obliviously, if you live in some small-ish 200k-500k non-touristic city away from the big metro areas, then CoL will be much less and your income will stretch much further and you might be better off financially, but then those cities also have a lot less to offer in terms culture, events, entertainment, along with fewer or even no work and socializing opportunities for SW devs as tech jobs concentrate only in the big metro areas.

So it depends on what you prioritize. Young single people tend to sacrifice savings, to live in big expensive cities for career and social opportunities, while people with families tend to do the opposite. But in general it's difficult to have your cake and eat it too unless you're very lucky.

[xg15]

This is actually how I understood the "remote work" movement before covid: Not literally "work from home" but "work where it works best for you", e.g. in coworking spaces.

Covid was an exception because it made "work from home" literal, as the isolation was the point.

Of course even in normal times, coworking spaces cost money and have to be available, so you might now have a situation where workers now have to pay extra to not be isolated. And not everyone can do or wants to do that.

[stringfood]

The worst thing about office friends is they immediatley cease to be friends when you are laid off or change jobs, only maybe 2% do I actually stay in contact with, and frankly that is just because of the nostalgia I have of working with them and the networking benefits. Work friends are not friends. People you meet near your home and at your book club are more likely to stick around through the thick and thin. That being said yes being in office can benefit some people's mental health

[tpmoney]

> Work friends are not friends.

This is reductive to the point of absurdity. Situational friends are still friends. How many of your elementary school friends are still your friends these days? High school? Summer camp? Heck college friends? Unless you're living in the same town with the same people, there's a good chance that most of them aren't anymore. Were these people also not your friends? When you leave that book club, when you stop showing up at the corner cafe, when you move out of the neighborhood, how many of those people will you still be spending time with 5 years later. For the ones that you aren't, were they also not really friends?

Friendship isn't a binary thing. Not every friend you make will help you bury a body, but not every friend or friendship needs to (or should) run that deep. And sure not everyone you're "friendly" with at work are friends, it's a spectrum. But situational friends are friends. People you bond with for a short while over a shared experience and then when life moves one or both of you on the friendship ends are still friends.

[throwaway2037]

    > Work friends are not friends.

Another dumb thing about this statement: It is just so situationally and culturally dependent. In many companies and cultures, it is quite normal to make good friends through work. One generality that I find true across many different situations and cultures: If you work in a generally low competition job, you are much more likely to make friends from work. The more competitive the job becomes, the less likely you are to make (and keep) friends from work.

[stringfood]

I just find the moment the day to day bond is severed the contact decreases over time to a point where they might as well not be friends! When I worked retail I had a great group of friends but what could we really talk about 7 years after we all went our separate ways? Just saying most people I meet at work I would not choose to be friends with out of a lineup of people and we only became close because we spent 50 hours a week in the trenches together keeping the lights on.

[crab_galaxy]

Personally I think you’re both correct but I also think you’re talking about most people‘s definition of an acquaintance.

[tpmoney]

But then what is a friend? If a "friendship" ever ends, does that mean it was never a friendship at all? I've had very good friends, people I've shared houses with, helped move, been to their weddings and they've been to mine. And it's easily been 10 years since we last saw each other or talked. We even still live in the same city as far as I know, but our lives have taken us down different paths, and we've each been busy in other ways and places and the few times we've tried to coordinate something it just fell through. But you can't call someone you chose to live with an "acquaintance" in my opinion, but our friendship ended (or at least became one in name only) when life forces no longer pushed us together.

In my opinion I consider a friendship any relationship where no matter how long ago it ended or how long ago you last talked you wouldn't mind hearing from them again, even if it might only be awkward small talk. Old schoolmates, college roommates, military squadmates, and co-workers can all be friends. They can all be acquaintances too. But crucially the fact that you stopped talking at one point or stopped spending time together isn't the demarcating factor between the two.

[stringfood]

A friend by definition is someone you at one point spent over 12 hours a week socializing with closely and had at least 7 major bonding moments over a one year period. After that vesting period you are allowed to drop to just 6 hours a week and 3 major bonding events yearly for the next 2 years. After that you can run the friendship in maintenance mode using the momentum gained and simply reach out for lunch once a year. But if you miss a once a year lunch 2 years in a row, or if your current group of friends grows twice in size in a single month, that work friend will be put into essentially a PIP. You inform the friend of the need for increased socialization and let him know if a major bonding event does not occur, or if a decrease in rate of friend acquisition does not happen, he will be terminated and sent his remaining funds via an ACH check.

It's been this way for years

[Cyclone_]

You probably just never got to know them that well and did things outside of work with them. I've met people at the office and stayed in touch with them and hung out after they left or I left the company.

[stringfood]

That's a great point I never thought of! I'm also an introvert and don't relate to my peers who normally are always older than me by 10 years for some reason lol

[Cyclone_]

That does make it tough at times when there's the age gap. Every younger place I've been at has been lord of the flies so I've since then looked for places where people are a bit older lol. One of my good friends now is about 10 years older and I've found once you get past 30 whether you click with them matters more. One piece of advice I'd say is just try and find people where you do things with them regularly outside of work.

[throw-the-towel]

Genuine question: why do you expect them to stay your best friends forever? Is just seeing other humans not valuable enough? Your POV strikes me as very all-or-nothing.

[s1artibartfast]

Meh, about half my close friends are former coworkers.

Some even married coworkers. New jobs but still married

[stringfood]

everyone stop making me jealous for having only a few friends!!