[rsalus]

I was a big proponent of encoding TDD red-green-refactor methodology into my agent workflows until recently when I made the same realization after reading this study: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2602.07900

TLDR; it found test-writing volume only weakly correlates with success and that encoding test-writing principles did not move resolution rates but _did_ materially change cost. Encouraging tests cost +19.8% output tokens for 0% gain; discouraging them saved 33–49% input tokens for ≤2.6pp accuracy loss. Separately, imposing the TDD procedure specifically seems like it can backfire: it actually _increased_ regressions from 6.08% to 9.94%.

IMO, where tests clearly help is primarily as an "oracle" applied after generation. It gives the models a signal that enables them to verify and self-correct if necessary.

[zuzululu]

Very interesting paper and it lines up exactly with my observations. The ROI just isn't there writing tests up front and the conclusion in that paper lays it out clearly

    Overall, these findings suggest that agent-written
    tests often behave more like a habitual software-development rou-
    tine than a dependable source of validation in this setting. More
    agent-written tests do not mean more solves; what they more reli-
    ably change is the process footprint—API calls, token usage, and
    interaction patterns. Improving the value of testing for code agents
    may therefore require better oracles and more actionable validation
    signals, rather than simply inducing agents to write more tests.

> IMO, where tests clearly help is primarily as an "oracle" applied after generation

Bingo. I'm not against writing tests it's that the returns are better when its used as verification feedback and as "Oracle" exactly as you put it.

[girvo]

Just chiming in to say that I've seen the exact same that you have. Tests are better used to help validate that was was generated worked after the fact.

That, and even the absolute SOTA models still suck at writing tests.

Which shouldn't be surprising: humans suck at it too most of the time...

[zuzululu]

Absolutely, there's no reason to believe that agents will be more capable of writing tests than any other piece of code. The big pay off is actually verifying the code that was generated.

[esperent]

From that paper:

> This raises a central question: do such tests meaningfully improve issue resolution, or do they mainly mimic a familiar software-development practice while consuming interaction budget?

This is an important question but it's not the one I'm most interested in when requiring agents to follow TDD. My goal is to lock in behavior because it was happening way too frequently that an agent would successfully fix the issue at hand, but break something else that it wasn't supposed to touch.

The tests add another layer and it's why I always separate out red and green worker subagents. The green worker might get trigger happy and go beyond scope/break something but it's not allowed to fudge the tests so I'll know and can clean up and revert.

It's also why I'm not too bothered about perfect red green TDD. I can add the tests later if needed.

[rsalus]

tests are an important signal of course, but the use case you describe doesn't necessarily mean you need to follow TDD. the data suggests that creating the tests after the code is just as or even more effective, and at significantly cheaper input cost.

I've been finding enforcing integrations and behavior structurally (e.g., through codegen/schemagen, e2e tests, etc) more reliable than simply instructing the models to write tests. oftentimes these tests are pretty low quality anyway, and results in its own form of tech debt.

[esperent]

Why do you think creating tests later would be cheaper?

[necovek]

The paper focuses on two things: default behavior and behavior with a prompt to write at least one new test.

In general — just like with humans — I find "just add more tests" to be counter-productive.

Tests make sense in a testable architecture: TDD can encourage one to be implicitly used, but it is a design, architectural choice that should be made explicit (lean to functional code; use direct, explicit dependency injection; ensure test stubs are just variants of the real implementation and fully tested using the same test as the real one...). LLMs should be prompted with this guidance instead for proper value estimation.

[dnautics]

no. red green tdd is great because you'll have tests when your llm breaks something later, or you're doing a massive refactor. i imagine studies are not done on codebases where the complexity gets that high.

tdd has been invaluable for this project (almost entirely llm written, but i review it) https://github.com/ityonemo/clr

[rsalus]

this is not really backed by any empirical evidence. there are simply more efficient means of verifying outputs than TDD.